[C38] DEATH ROLE

Fri Jun 13 19:07:43 EDT 2008

Kerry,
  Great to hear from you, and thanks for your invite.  I've always enjoyed your part of the river, and would enjoy your local club racing in that area.
  I have,just this afternoon, returned home after almost 2 months away in the RV.  As you can imagine, I've got a ton of catching up to do, & don't even have an idea of when I might get away.  I'll call you, anyhow, and let you know more--when I know more.
  My phone is 209-365-7433, in case I miss you.  Call me if you're coming into the Lodi area & can drop by.
  glen

  Kerry Grimes <littlebreeze at comcast.net> wrote:
  Glen

I live in Antioch and would be interested in going out with you some 
time this summer. It's obvious you have done more with your boat than I 
have with mine. I've thought about the Delta Ditch Run or the South 
Tower Race out of Stockton, but have yet to participate. We beer can 
race out of the Antioch City Marina on Wednesdays and you are surely 
invited if you would like to see more of the delta. If you are 
interested please call.

Kerry Grimes
Little Breeze, 139
Antioch, CA
(925) 354-6487

Glen Robinson wrote:
> Joe,
> Seems you know about our little piece of river, & I thank you for your 
> kind words.
> I have done the Ditch Run crewing in boats ranging from a J-24 to a 
> NM-42, and have driven my C-38, SNOWBIRD, in the race 3 times, giving 
> me many white-knuckle hours of rock-and-roll, chasing my choked-down 
> chute DDW through that narrow, twisty, channel.
> As to the better man--I suspect not. Without great, experienced crew, 
> it's just not possible in this type of boat, no matter how well you 
> think you can drive. However, with good equipment and crew, most 
> experienced folks do just fine. As we say, it's just "70 miles of fun"!
> glen
>
> */Joseph Launie /* wrote:
>
> Glen,
> Don't tell me you have done the Delta Ditch run in a C-38? If you
> have you are a far better man than me Magee. Joe Launie, Macavity
> Commodore
>
> Glen Robinson wrote:
>> Bobster,
>> Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
>> As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings
>> (with the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not,
>> ignore, & this may benefit others):
>> The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched
>> at the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable
>> condition when _dead downwind_. This is exacerbated by the fact
>> that these are not planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to
>> maybe12, or so, knots when surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know,
>> I know: Someone out there has done--or heard reliable reports
>> of--15, or 20, or more??).
>> In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay,
>> Pacific Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San
>> Joaquin Delta), when we are going max speed for the conditions &
>> the breeze tries to push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just
>> digs a deeper hole in the water, & the death rolls begin--where
>> the chute oscillates side to side, tilting the mast one way, then
>> the other. If not controlled, this worsens, until--WE BROACH!
>> (Sometimes after only 1 or 2 oscillations).
>> Hopefully, it's a _windward _broach, & we can dump the spinnaker
>> sheet, the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may
>> even save from the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow
>> back downwind, crank it all in and do it again! And Again! And
>> Again! (Multiple broaches are not recommended--for obvious reasons).
>> The _leeward_ Broach _is to be avoided!_ Period! The boom comes
>> across dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side
>> down, and often is pinned that way until after much corrective
>> action. It's really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
>> My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask
>> around, and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
>> A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, _REDUCE SAIL_.
>> These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a
>> _polled out 110_ in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have
>> comfortably sailed past many out-of-control, overpowered
>> spinnaker boats this way (occasionally, old age and experience
>> prevails over youth and testosterone).
>> B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
>> spinnaker, _REACH UP_ a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
>> stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to
>> drive it down in the blasts (you already know _not_ to sail by
>> the lee).
>> C) Finally, if you _must _carry the chute DDW for whatever
>> reason, to minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
>> 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim
>> the twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b)
>> depowers the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In
>> addition, you can:
>> 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves
>> from side-to-side, and simply drive _toward_ the chute. With a
>> little practice and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and
>> even lead it slightly, which actually can stop the oscillations.
>> Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder,
>> which is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman
>> (as well as the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in
>> control.
>> Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate,
>> leading to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by
>> aggressively wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the
>> cavitation.
>> Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
>> crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
>> carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very
>> safe!--with a top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage
>> (Cal 39) in less than 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter
>> case, we also had several minor injuries (Good luck, good
>> anticipation and excellent reaction by the few experienced crew
>> prevented a far worse scenario).
>> In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
>> better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you
>> can, talk to as many as you can, _crew_ _with experienced
>> sailors_, try a few things, and decide for yourself.
>> Again, Congratulations on your new love,
>> Glen
>> C-38 SNOWBIRD
>> Lodi, CA
>> */Phil Gay /* wrote:
>>
>> My only experience with the death roll was when I was
>> traveling south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a
>> little wind off the stern and wanted to try my recently
>> acquired spinnaker. I didn’t want to bother with the main and
>> rigged lines for the spinnaker. I didn’t notice that the wind
>> had increased and there were now white caps. Soon after I
>> hoisted the spinnaker, the boat started rolling to port and
>> then to starboard. Each time it rolled and started turning,
>> it took more helm to correct it. I quickly got the spinnaker
>> down and decided to never hoist the spinnaker without a main
>> to blanket the wind if the situation gets out of hand.
>> Phil Gay
>> C38 049 Que Linda
>> Everett, WA
>> *From:* listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *bobster94
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
>> *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
>> *Subject:* [C38] DEATH ROLE
>> I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat.
>> She has such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard
>> tell she can be a real handful downwind. Can someone educate
>> me about the term, "Death Role".
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