[C38] Listserve Digest, Vol 5, Issue 178
TherORl at aol.com
TherORl at aol.com
Thu Jul 9 11:49:04 EDT 2009
I might have missed some of the discussion, but where is this vibration? Is
it when the you're under sail or when the motor is running. We have a
slight flutter in the wheel under sail, but zero vibration when motoring.
If it's when motoring, it would have to be either the prop shaft or the
motor mounts. There would be nothing else that would cause a vibration.
Lucky Star
Catalina 38
In a message dated 7/8/2009 7:12:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
listserve-request at catalina38.org writes:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: vibration another thought(alden) (alden Andre)
2. Re: Alternator and charging (Les)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:18:00 -0700
From: "alden Andre" <alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [C38] vibration another thought(alden)
To: <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID:
<00c701ca0033$1c6d96de$0b01a8c0 at CLIFFORDDEVELOPMENTGROUP.LOCAL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Just another thought you probably replaced your zincs when you did the
bottom. Maybe its out of balance or not tight. alden
Sent from my Windows Mobile? phone.
-----Original Message-----
From: listserve-request at catalina38.org <listserve-request at catalina38.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 10:41 AM
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Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 5, Issue 176
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1. Re: vibration(alden) (littlebreeze at comcast.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:40:55 +0000 (UTC)
From: littlebreeze at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [C38] vibration(alden)
To: tdtron at earthlink.net, Catalina 38 Listserve
<listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID:
<713797733.1533091247074855340.JavaMail.root at sz0152a.emeryville.ca.mail.comc
ast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Okay, all that being said, when they realigned the engine one of the steps
they used was to put a dial indicator on the very little exposed portion
of the prop shaft which is behind the engine and before the packing gland.
They said there is no indication the prop shaft is bent. I for one have a
call into Catalina so that I might purchase a new shaft prior to pulling the
boat again. I thought I would just replace the while shaft while it was out
and have the prop checked for balance. I'm also concerned that the shaft
is too short adding to the problem. Now the thing that did not occur to me
was bad motor mounts. One or two bad mounts would allow for proper engine
alignment, but might tend to amplify the natural engine harmonics of a three
cylinder engine. Any idea of what a bad motor mount looks like other than
the rubber falling on my feet. I guess having two people on board while
running the engine at speed and taking a look at the movement in the mount
would probably be th
e best way.
Kerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net>
To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 9:51:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [C38] vibration(alden)
I'm behind on my emails and didn't see Alden Andre's reply before I added
to Steve Smolinske's reply. I see Alden also suspects a bent prop shaft as
I do. GMTA By the way, when I put a flex coupler and flex flywheel dampner,
I had a stainless shaft made. My bronze shaft was OK but I wanted the
stronger stainless shaft so it wouldn't be as easy to bend if or when I manage
to damage my prop. Tom Troncalli > [Original Message] > From: alden Andre >
To: > Date: 7/8/2009 11:00:56 AM > Subject: Re: [C38] vibration(alden) > >
I think you have a bent prop shaft. It is what probably loosend your strut
in the first place. Or it could be a out of balance prop. I have the
standard fixed two blade prop and have no vibration at low or high power
settings.your going to have to haul again to check them out. > alden > Sent from
my Windows Mobile? phone. > > -----Original Message----- > From:
listserve-request at catalina38.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 6:02 AM > To:
listserve at catalina38.o
rg > Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 5, Issue 169 > > Send Listserve
mailing list submissions to > listserve at catalina38.org > > To subscribe or
unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or
body 'help' to > listserve-request at catalina38.org > > You can reach the
person managing the list at > listserve-owner at catalina38.org > > When
replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re:
Contents of Listserve digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Vibration
(littlebreeze at comcast.net) > 2. Re: Vibration (Bob Porter) > 3. Re: Alternator and
charging (Craig Steinkraus) > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009
06:12:24 +0000 (UTC) > From: littlebreeze at comcast.net > Subject: [C38] Vibration >
To: "Listserve, Catalina" > Message-ID: >
<810392565.1381601247033544444.JavaMail.root at sz01
52a.emeryville.ca.mail.com cast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8" > > I recently had my boat in for a bottom job. While there the
strut was found to be loose. I had the strut repaired and now there is a
vibration. At first the vibration was so violent to broke the hose clamps on
the packing gland hose. Then the engine was realigned and most the vibration
was gone. The vibration which is left is still enough to vibrate the
steering pedestal. When I bought the boat 5 years ago I brought it up the coast
on the motor and there wasn't a vibration and when I took to have the bottom
repaired there wasn't a vibration. Now it is logical to believe that the
vibration was there you just couldn't feel it because the strut was loose
and now that it is rigid again you can feel the vibration. The other thing
which is of concern is that the propeller is mounted within 1/4 inch of the
strut, but there is another Catalina 38 in the same yard and the propeller
is approximately
1 foot from the strut. (of course is has been a month and I did not
measure the distanc > e between the strut and the prop). I think there could be a
correlation between the location of the prop/strut and the vibration. > >
So I have several questions. First, for those of you who have had you
boats out of the water recently, what is the distance between your prop and the
strut. Second, any Ideas on the vibration? Third, I know some of you have
had to deal with vibrations in the past, what have you done to rectify your
problems? > > Kerry Grimes > Littlebreeze, 139 > San Francisco > > >
-------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >
URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 8 Jul
2009 05:45:07 -0400 > From: "Bob Porter" > Subject: Re: [C38] Vibration > To:
"Catalina 38 Listserve" > Message-ID:
<344077E67B574521B499DDD30A9EB4E6 at YOUR8D60784E1D> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Is there
anything that could
have changed the balance of your prop. I has a martec folding prop with a
slight imbalance and it caused quite a vibration, dependent on speed. > >
Bob Porter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: littlebreeze at comcast.net >
To: Listserve, Catalina > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 2:12 AM >
Subject: [C38] Vibration > > > I recently had my boat in for a bottom job. While
there the strut was found to be loose. I had the strut repaired and now
there is a vibration. At first the vibration was so violent to broke the hose
clamps on the packing gland hose. Then the engine was realigned and most the
vibration was gone. The vibration which is left is still enough to vibrate
the steering pedestal. When I bought the boat 5 years ago I brought it up
the coast on the motor and there wasn't a vibration and when I took to have
the bottom repaired there wasn't a vibration. Now it is logical to believe
that the vibration was there you just couldn't feel it because the strut
was loose and n
ow that it is rigid again you can feel the vibration. The other thing
which is of concern is that the propeller is mounted within 1/4 inch of the
strut, but there is another Catalina 38 in the same yard and the propeller is
approximately 1 foot from the strut. (of course is has been a month and I
did not measure > the distance between the strut and the prop). I think
there could be a correlation between the location of the prop/strut and the
vibration. > > So I have several questions. First, for those of you who have
had you boats out of the water recently, what is the distance between your
prop and the strut. Second, any Ideas on the vibration? Third, I know some
of you have had to deal with vibrations in the past, what have you done to
rectify your problems? > > Kerry Grimes > Littlebreeze, 139 > San Francisco
> > > > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ >
Listserve mailing
list > Listserve at catalina38.org >
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Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:59:55 -0500 > From: "Craig
Steinkraus" > Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging > To: "Catalina 38
Listserve" > Message-ID: <60D9FAE0CE9A49B582F030F3BF24E1EA at OwnerPC> > Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Maybe after I get to the boat and
look at the wiring, it will be apparent, but as I sit here the question I have
is why run the alt. output to the starter first? > > > Craig Steinkraus >
"Wings" > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Smolinske > To:
Catalina 38 Listserve > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:52 PM > Subject: Re:
[C38] Alternator and charging > > > Max I do run it from the alternator to
the starter, and then from the starter to the battery switch. > > > >
-----------------------
----------------------------------------------------- -- > From:
listserve-bounces at catalina38.org [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf
Of Max Soto > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:52 AM > To: Catalina 38
Listserve > Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging > > > > HI Steve, > > >
Now it makes sense. I thought you run the wire from the alt directly to the
starter, and I was thinking how you were using the new switch, but if you
have it directly hooked up to a battery bank it should be working great. >
I have almost the same setup but the alt wire runs directly to the house
bank. I was going to use the same ACR, but since I have different battery
technologies I went for the echo charge(just 15 amps, but enough for a
starting battery).. > I agree with you that the charging system has never worked
as good as with this setup. > > > Max > > > > > 2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske >
> Max, > > ACR stands for Automatic Charging Relay, it combines the two
banks during chargi
ng and isolates during discharge. Mine is hooked up so that when the
engine starts it goes to the start bank first and then after 30 seconds connects
the two banks so the voltage equalizes and then charges both.
http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386 > > > On the bluse sea switch
http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/6011_web_version.pdf it
isolates the two banks except when you need to combine for emergencies. Rather
than choices for which bank to use the old 1, 2 or 1&2 it only has on and
combine. In the on position both banks are providing power one to house one
to start but are never combined unless you choose the combine option. To
charge all you do is select on and start the engine. > > Steve > > > > >
________________________________ > > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on
behalf of Max Soto > Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 5:14 PM > > To: Catalina 38
Listserve > Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging > > > Hi Steve, > > Just a
couple of questi
ons: > > What's that ACR is this some kind of isolator or charging
relay??? > I have this switch on Estancia, but in my case the current from the
alternator runs directly to the house battery bank, and a Xantrex Echo Charger
tranfers current from this bank to the starting battery. > > How do you
charge the second battery bank??? You have to use the Blue Seas switch on
"emergency start" to charge both banks at the same time?? > > Regards, > > Max
> > > > 2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske > > > Conclusion for everyone on this
item, I took Tom's advice and what a difference in the system. I ended up
having the alternator and starter tested and rebuilt ($125) new brushes,
regulator and contacts. When hooking it back up I ran current from the alternator
directly to the starter then on to the battery switch. The wires that use
to lead the current up to the ampmeter and then back to the starter (red
and orange #10) one was abandonded and the other powers the new voltmeter
with an inline fus
e. I also replaced the battery switch with Blue Seas newer switch that
completly isolates the house and start banks with the exception of emergency
combine, just one choice on or off for normal operation, no more 1, 2 or 1&2
to confuse the admiral. It also turns out that the problem most likely was
an incorrectly installed ACR, there are two important small wires that
allow the ACR to sense both banks. Even though the ACR wiring was probably the
culprit it is a nice > feeling after tearing things apart to realize that
all that current from the alternator is no longer going through two
undersized wires and a suspect wire harness but instead is being carried by a
battery cable to the batteries. > > Steve > Peregrine #312 > Seattle > >
________________________________ > > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on
behalf of Tom T. > Sent: Mon 6/29/2009 3:27 PM > To: Catalina 38 Listserve >
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging > > > > > Hello Steve, > > You
are correct. The
30 amp fuse in your charging circuit is too small to carry the load if the
batteries are discharged or you are running other high load applications.
I expect they may be using a small fuse to try to reduce the maximum load
on the wiring harness which has been a problem in the past. > > To carry a
high amperage load to your engine control panel is not only a lot of
electrical loss but it can be dangerous if your harness connections are corroded.
There have been many original engine control harnesses burned up because of
the high load on the amp meter wires in that harness. > > The amp meter
isn't needed anyway. You can have an amp meter showing a lot of amps but if
your battery bank is shorted, you will only be creating heat on the harness
and load on your engine but a shorted battery will never charge with the
amp meter giving you a false sense of security. A volt meter gives a better
idea of your charging and battery conditions. > > A more practical solution
to the amp met
er is to replace the original amp meter with a marine grade volt meter. To
do this, you run the output of the alternator directly to your battery
banks and use the original wires to the amp meter to feed a new volt meter.
You can run the feed to the volt meter from the positive side of the starter
solenoid since it is very close to the alternator making a very easy
conversion. > > The volt meter conversion is a very good and highly recommended
upgrade. It will make your boat safer and your alternator will perform
better because more output will go to the battery bank instead of wasted in heat
loss in the harness and possible faulty connectors. > > Fuse the wire that
you run from the solenoid to the new volt meter. There will be very little
current on that wire now so even a small fuse like 5 amps will do fine.
The fuse should be very close to the alternator for safety. > > It has been a
long time since I made this modification on my boat but I believe the
harness wire used f
or the volt meter conversion is an orange wire. I wrote an article for
Mainsheet several years ago about this conversion but I don't remember what
year or month it was but I'm sure I can find a draft copy in my archives if
you need it, just let me know and I'll look for it. > > Good luck, > > Tom
Troncalli > Renata (Hull #95) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:
Steve Smolinske > To: Catalina 38 Listserve > Sent: 6/29/2009 4:35:25 PM >
Subject: [C38] Alternator and charging > > > Tom T, I'm hoping you can add
some insight on this. I suspected my system wasn't charging so I took the
alternator and starter off and had them both tested, they are fine, and since
there off I took the precaution to have the regulator, brushes and contacts
replaced. Going over the wiring diagram for the M30 They call out #10 wire
with a 30 amp fuse inline from the amp meter to the Starter Solenoid.
Knowing that a regulator varies charge based on battery condition/charge and
rpm isn't a 30 amp
fuse undersized, and why a fuse anyway, shouldn't the wire be sized
correctly to handle the highest load the system would see. > > > Steve Smolinske
> President > > 4M Company, Inc. > 15660 Nelson Place South > Seattle, WA
98188 > 425-227-4500 > > www.rainierrubber.com > > > > The information
contained in this email may be confidential and/or proprietary in nature and is
intended for the recipient of the email only. Please treat all information
contained in this and any communication with the 4M Company as such. Thank
you. > > P Before printing, think about ENVIRONMENTAL responsibility > > >
> > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG -
www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date:
06/29/09 05:54:00 > > > > > >
_______________________________________________ > Listserve mailing list > Listserve at catalina38.org >
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org > > > > > > > > > >
_________________________
______________________ > Listserve mailing list > Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org > > > >
> > -- > Max Soto > C38 #198 ESTANCIA > Puntarenas, Costa Rica > > Checked
by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.6/2221 -
Release Date: 07/07/09 05:53:00 > > > > > >
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:10:08 -0700
From: Les <hlhowell at pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <1247105408.2979.3.camel at localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain
Basically this allows you have something like #8 or #10 wire jumper
between the starter solenoid and the alternator, then heavy battery
cable for low loss to the battery. You MUST have large #2 or #4 wire to
the battery to carry the literally hundreds of amps that the full start
and preheater require. There is no need to run that heavy a wire to the
alternator, where it would add mechanical load that the alternator
designer did not expect.
Regards,
Les H
On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 07:59 -0500, Craig Steinkraus wrote:
> Maybe after I get to the boat and look at the wiring, it will be
> apparent, but as I sit here the question I have is why run the alt.
> output to the starter first?
>
>
> Craig Steinkraus
> "Wings"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Smolinske
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging
>
>
> Max I do run it from the alternator to the starter, and then
> from the starter to the battery switch.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Max
> Soto
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:52 AM
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging
>
>
>
>
> HI Steve,
>
>
> Now it makes sense. I thought you run the wire from the alt
> directly to the starter, and I was thinking how you were using
> the new switch, but if you have it directly hooked up to a
> battery bank it should be working great.
> I have almost the same setup but the alt wire runs directly to
> the house bank. I was going to use the same ACR, but since I
> have different battery technologies I went for the echo
> charge(just 15 amps, but enough for a starting battery)..
> I agree with you that the charging system has never worked as
> good as with this setup.
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> 2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
> Max,
>
> ACR stands for Automatic Charging Relay, it combines
> the two banks during charging and isolates during
> discharge. Mine is hooked up so that when the engine
> starts it goes to the start bank first and then after
> 30 seconds connects the two banks so the voltage
> equalizes and then charges both.
> http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386
>
>
> On the bluse sea switch
> http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/6011_web_version.pdf
it isolates the two banks except when you need to combine for
emergencies. Rather than choices for which bank to use the old 1, 2 or 1&2 it only
has on and combine. In the on position both banks are providing power one
to house one to start but are never combined unless you choose the combine
option. To charge all you do is select on and start the engine.
>
> Steve
>
>
> <http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on behalf of
> Max Soto
> Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 5:14 PM
>
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Just a couple of questions:
>
> What's that ACR is this some kind of isolator or
> charging relay???
> I have this switch on Estancia, but in my case the
> current from the alternator runs directly to the house
> battery bank, and a Xantrex Echo Charger tranfers
> current from this bank to the starting battery.
>
> How do you charge the second battery bank??? You have
> to use the Blue Seas switch on "emergency start" to
> charge both banks at the same time??
>
> Regards,
>
> Max
>
>
>
> 2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske
> <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
>
>
> Conclusion for everyone on this item, I took
> Tom's advice and what a difference in the system. I
> ended up having the alternator and starter tested and
> rebuilt ($125) new brushes, regulator and contacts.
> When hooking it back up I ran current from the
> alternator directly to the starter then on to the
> battery switch. The wires that use to lead the
> current up to the ampmeter and then back to the
> starter (red and orange #10) one was abandonded and
> the other powers the new voltmeter with an inline
> fuse. I also replaced the battery switch with Blue
> Seas newer switch that completly isolates the house
> and start banks with the exception of emergency
> combine, just one choice on or off for normal
> operation, no more 1, 2 or 1&2 to confuse the
> admiral. It also turns out that the problem most
> likely was an incorrectly installed ACR, there are
> two important small wires that allow the ACR to sense
> both banks. Even though the ACR wiring was probably
> the culprit it is a nice feeling after tearing things
> apart to realize that all that current from the
> alternator is no longer going through two undersized
> wires and a suspect wire harness but instead is being
> carried by a battery cable to the batteries.
>
> Steve
> Peregrine #312
> Seattle
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on
> behalf of Tom T.
> Sent: Mon 6/29/2009 3:27 PM
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging
>
>
>
>
> Hello Steve,
>
> You are correct. The 30 amp fuse in your
> charging circuit is too small to carry the load if the
> batteries are discharged or you are running other high
> load applications. I expect they may be using a small
> fuse to try to reduce the maximum load on the wiring
> harness which has been a problem in the past.
>
> To carry a high amperage load to your engine
> control panel is not only a lot of electrical loss but
> it can be dangerous if your harness connections are
> corroded. There have been many original engine
> control harnesses burned up because of the high load
> on the amp meter wires in that harness.
>
> The amp meter isn't needed anyway. You can
> have an amp meter showing a lot of amps but if your
> battery bank is shorted, you will only be creating
> heat on the harness and load on your engine but a
> shorted battery will never charge with the amp meter
> giving you a false sense of security. A volt meter
> gives a better idea of your charging and battery
> conditions.
>
> A more practical solution to the amp meter is
> to replace the original amp meter with a marine grade
> volt meter. To do this, you run the output of the
> alternator directly to your battery banks and use the
> original wires to the amp meter to feed a new volt
> meter. You can run the feed to the volt meter from
> the positive side of the starter solenoid since it is
> very close to the alternator making a very easy
> conversion.
>
> The volt meter conversion is a very good and
> highly recommended upgrade. It will make your boat
> safer and your alternator will perform better because
> more output will go to the battery bank instead of
> wasted in heat loss in the harness and possible faulty
> connectors.
>
> Fuse the wire that you run from the solenoid to
> the new volt meter. There will be very little current
> on that wire now so even a small fuse like 5 amps will
> do fine. The fuse should be very close to the
> alternator for safety.
>
> It has been a long time since I made this
> modification on my boat but I believe the harness wire
> used for the volt meter conversion is an orange wire.
> I wrote an article for Mainsheet several years ago
> about this conversion but I don't remember what year
> or month it was but I'm sure I can find a draft copy
> in my archives if you need it, just let me know and
> I'll look for it.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Tom Troncalli
> Renata (Hull #95)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Steve Smolinske
> <mailto:SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
> Sent: 6/29/2009 4:35:25 PM
> Subject: [C38] Alternator and charging
>
>
> Tom T, I'm hoping you can add some
> insight on this. I suspected my system wasn't
> charging so I took the alternator and starter off and
> had them both tested, they are fine, and since there
> off I took the precaution to have the regulator,
> brushes and contacts replaced. Going over the wiring
> diagram for the M30 They call out #10 wire with a 30
> amp fuse inline from the amp meter to the Starter
> Solenoid. Knowing that a regulator varies charge
> based on battery condition/charge and rpm isn't a 30
> amp fuse undersized, and why a fuse anyway, shouldn't
> the wire be sized correctly to handle the highest load
> the system would see.
>
>
> Steve Smolinske
> President
>
> 4M Company, Inc.
> 15660 Nelson Place South
> Seattle, WA 98188
> 425-227-4500
>
> www.rainierrubber.com
> <http://www.rainierrubber.com/>
>
>
> The information contained in this email
> may be confidential and/or proprietary in nature and
> is intended for the recipient of the email only.
> Please treat all information contained in this and
> any communication with the 4M Company as such. Thank
> you.
>
> P Before printing, think about
> ENVIRONMENTAL responsibility
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Max Soto
> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>
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Mike O'Reilly
Mike O'Reilly
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