[C38] Listserve Digest, Vol 6, Issue 221

Mon Jun 7 15:28:16 EDT 2010

Hey everybody,

Thanks so much for all of the advice and suggestions.  We did finally diagnose the problem!  It turns out that it the plug that blocked off the main oil passage in the cylinder head (where the factory drilled out the oil passage) this plug had become eroded and during the head getting reworked at the shop - it had fallen out completely.  So all of the oil that normally is delivered to the rocker arms was being pumped directly into the coolant system where the thermostat plate is attached to the forward portion of the head.  I brought it back to the shop and had a steel plug installed - and all the problems are over.  Sailed from Honolulu to Maui and engine runs as solid as she ever did.  

Thanks again for all your help!!

Best,
Jon Whitney

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Today's Topics:

   1. Oil in water problem (Tom T.)

   2. Re: Oil in water problem (Charles B. Finn)

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Message: 1

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:18:33 -0400

From: "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net>

To: "Catalina 38 forum" <Listserve at catalina38.org>

Subject: [C38] Oil in water problem

Message-ID: <380-22010632231833394 at earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jonathan,

The main cause of water in oil is usually a failure of the oil passage going 

through the head gasket that feeds the rocker arms in the head.

When this passage fails, oil can go either to the combustion chambers or water 

passages and sometimes both.  Our engines use an "O" ring in the head gasket to 

seal the oil passage and that "O" ring should be replaced any time the head is 

removed.

One other possibility on the 5424 head is there is very little metal between a 

horizontal oil gallery in the head and the engine water cooling water chamber it 

passes through.  This thin casting point can be found by following the oil 

gallery from the pipe plug where the oil gallery was drilled at the end of the 

head.

With the head off, you can insert air pressure into this oil gallery with the 

pipe plug removed and listen and look for any air and/or oil escaping into the 

water jacket area of the head.  I actually had a head fail in this oil passage 

area many years ago. 

I ground the crack exposing the oil gallery.  I then drilled out the passage 

making it large enough to accept a machined sleeve I turned on a lathe. I 

pressed the sleeve into the oil passage with a press fit.  I then heated the 

entire head to around 700 degrees (I'm guessing) and then I brazed the sleeve 

through the ground out area exposing it.

When I was finished, the head looked like new except for the brass color of the 

weld.

That repair was in 1993 and has held ever since.  I had taken the head to a 

professional head repair shop but they wouldn't attempt it and said I needed a 

new head.  I had more time and ingenuity than money and I may have been lucky 

but that repair was a success.

Hopefully you may only need a new "O" ring.

Tom Troncalli

Recovering ex-Catalina 38 owner 

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Message: 2

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:32:27 -0400

From: "Charles B. Finn" <charles at finn.ws>

To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>

Subject: Re: [C38] Oil in water problem

Message-ID: <4C07BCFB.3050003 at finn.ws>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Jonathan,

Tom's comments remind me of something we routinely did when I was a tool 

and die machinist working for U.S. Steel some 30 years ago.  We detected 

cracks in cast by Magnafluxing, which was done by creating a magnetic 

field and then sprinkling iron filling dust.  Cracks that were virtually 

undetectable through the human eye could be easily seen.  Any machine 

shop should be able to do this.  All you need is a magnetic coil and 

some iron dust.

A second check we did when tearing things down was to look for carbon in 

the cylinders.  Carbon buildup is normal, but the introduction of 

coolant and steam is very good at de-carbonizing, which results in a 

much cleaner cylinder and head area compared to the others.

If you do find a crack....  Tom is right that almost no shop will do the 

repair as this is an "art."  You have to heat and cool cast iron 

uniformly at high temps to prevent stress cracking.   What folks are 

doing instead these days is using something called "JB Weld" which is an 

epoxy.  The stuff actually works for those times when you don't have 

options...  The trick is to make sure the parts to be joined are really 

clean.  I wouldn't guarantee this fix, but when you are out of options, 

you do what you have to!

The atomic 4 engine, which myth says became the atomic diesel and then 

the 5424 is an amazing engine that is perhaps the most long-lived small 

marine engine around  (Universal actually built our engine off a kubota 

block, not the Atomic 4).  We had an early version of the 5424 in our 

Cascade 36 back in the late 70s and it was seriously abused (most of the 

members of my family had no idea where the dipstick was).  I recall we 

replaced the head once and there was an amazing aftermarket for the 

parts (even in pre-internet times).  There was also a large debate 

regarding head gaskets!  We went straight to Universal (now Torrensen) 

for the parts and I recall they sent the O rings with the head....   My 

hazy memory suggests we paid about $500 for the head (the run $2700 from 

Torrensen these days).  What is amazing to me is there is still a market 

for these engines, which speaks to their robustness.

Chuck Finn

Mighty Quinn,  #114

Great Lakes

On 6/2/2010 7:18 PM, Tom T. wrote:

> Jonathan,

> The main cause of water in oil is usually a failure of the oil passage 

> going through the head gasket that feeds the rocker arms in the head.

> When this passage fails, oil can go either to the combustion chambers 

> or water passages and sometimes both.  Our engines use an "O" ring in 

> the head gasket to seal the oil passage and that "O" ring should be 

> replaced any time the head is removed.

> One other possibility on the 5424 head is there is very little metal 

> between a horizontal oil gallery in the head and the engine water 

> cooling water chamber it passes through.  This thin casting point can 

> be found by following the oil gallery from the pipe plug where the oil 

> gallery was drilled at the end of the head.

> With the head off, you can insert air pressure into this oil gallery 

> with the pipe plug removed and listen and look for any air and/or oil 

> escaping into the water jacket area of the head.  I actually had a 

> head fail in this oil passage area many years ago.

> I ground the crack exposing the oil gallery.  I then drilled out the 

> passage making it large enough to accept a machined sleeve I turned on 

> a lathe. I pressed the sleeve into the oil passage with a press fit.  

> I then heated the entire head to around 700 degrees (I'm guessing) and 

> then I brazed the sleeve through the ground out area exposing it.

> When I was finished, the head looked like new except for the brass 

> color of the weld.

> That repair was in 1993 and has held ever since.  I had taken the head 

> to a professional head repair shop but they wouldn't attempt it and 

> said I needed a new head.  I had more time and ingenuity than money 

> and I may have been lucky but that repair was a success.

> Hopefully you may only need a new "O" ring.

> Tom Troncalli

> Recovering ex-Catalina 38 owner

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> Listserve mailing list

> Listserve at catalina38.org

> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org

>    

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