[C38] engine problem
alden Andre
alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com
Wed Jun 2 11:00:37 EDT 2010
After reading this my question is
1. is it leaking in the raw water or the coolant system? After reading
the problem I am confused is it coming out the tail pipe or in the
antifreeze side. Two different systems on the engine. Once that is
decided further trouble shooting can be done. If your raw water pump
seal was leaking you would only loose oil and it would be dishcarched
into the exhaust system. If it is getting into the Antifreeze system it
could be many things
1. Cracked block
2. head or head gasket(but it seems you have fixed this already)
3. Check the antifreeze pump it is driven by your Alternator belt.
4. Restriction in the exhaust causing back pressure(could have been
initial cause)
5.High oil pressure.
After moving my exhaust system last year I was mortified how chocked up
the pipes were I would suggest checking there first to see if your
getting excessive back pressure. Hope this helps
Alden
-----Original Message-----
From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
[mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
listserve-request at catalina38.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 7:10 AM
To: listserve at catalina38.org
Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 6, Issue 218
Send Listserve mailing list submissions to
listserve at catalina38.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
listserve-request at catalina38.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
listserve-owner at catalina38.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Listserve digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
(Jonathan Whitney)
2. Re: NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
(RICHARD KILROY)
3. Re: NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
(Charles B. Finn)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 23:32:16 -0400
From: Jonathan Whitney <jonwhit23 at aol.com>
To: listserve at catalina38.org
Subject: [C38] NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
Message-ID: <8CCD01B5576207C-17E8-45B4 at webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm having a serious issue that has been stumping several mechanics
that maybe people experienced with the Universal 5424/M30 would be
familiar with.
Problem:
Engine oil moving rapidly into freshwater coolant system. When running
engine, within one minute, emulsified oil and water are overflowing from
top of header tank. And within five minutes of running entire 5 quarts
of oil can be emptied into coolant system. Small amounts of emulsified
oil fall back into oil crankcase, however the overwhelming majority of
the flow is from the oil side to the coolant side.
Background:
Engine is Universal 5424, original 1979, no hour meter so unsure of
hours. Purchased boat 6 months ago.
Was having problem starting after a water in fuel contamination issue.
Middle injector had tip of nozzle blown off (tip physically gone after
inspection). Had all three injectors looked at and rebuilt. Once new
injectors were in and entire fuel system overhauled, still not starting.
After removing air intake manifold, eventually got to start, but
discovered it was only firing off 2 cylinders (middle cylinder where
blown tip occured was not firing). Feared an issue in the cylinder head
- so removed the head and brought to a head specialist to have tested.
Pressure tests showed that valve seats in middle and aft cylinder were
not sitting right. Got a valve job and entire cylinder head reworked.
Got head back, installed new head gasket ordered from Torreson (matches
old head gasket). Installed new head gasket (in proper orientation) and
re-conditioned cylinder head. Torqued to spec (56 lb/ft in order
indicated in service manual) reinstalled rocker assembly, air intake m
anifold, exhaust manifold, etc. Readjusted the valve timing to spec
(.007 inch on intake valves, and .009 inch on exhaust valves).
Installed valve cover, new injectors, etc.
Started engine, and it fired right up (that problem fixed), but within a
minute had emulsified oil/water flowing from top of header tank.
Initially thought could have been oil from removing cylinder head, so
flushed coolant system with little bit of soap and water till water
cleared. Drained all oil, flushed oil system with gallon of diesel,
drained all diesel, replaced oil filter. Filled with new oil to upper
level on dipstick (approximatly 4.5 quarts). Started engine again, and
within one minute have more emulsified oil/water from coolant system.
And tried to continue flushing with freshwater thinking that this
oil/water was not flushed out. Ran five minutes, gray frothy emulsified
oil still not stopping. Shut down. Checked oil level (dipstick showed
no oil). Tried to pump out oil and nothing in the oil pan -->
indicating nearly 5 quarts of oil was pumped into freshwater coolant
system in under five minutes.
Initial potential diagnosis from my mechanic (whom has been involved in
all these major steps) and several other diesel specialists now
involved.
(1) blown head gasket --> head gasket is still intact and in proper
orientation
(2) cylinder head cracked --> although it was fresh from a trusted
specialist -- this is still a possibility and its going back to him to
be retested. However, this is seeming unlikely as the speed to which
the oil goes into coolant, a crack in the head or the gasket not sitting
right wouldn't permit that amount of flow even under high oil pressure.
(3) first thing everyone says is "there must be a problem with the oil
cooler". As far as I know, there is no oil cooler on this engine, and
there doesn't appear to be any external oil cooler added at some point.
An oil cooler is not mentioned in the description of the oil lubrication
system in the service manual, or under any part list published for this
engine. From what I can tell - it doesn't have one. However, I'd love
for someone else who has this engine to tell me 100% it doesn't. Or if
there is one...where the hell is it?
(4) oil seal in the raw water pump are leaking. This could explain why
oil would be disappearing, but not how it gets into the freshwater
system, unless the raw water pump and the heat exchanger failed. So I
replaced the seals on the raw water pump, just to be sure. And pressure
tested the heat exchanger and there are no leaks. Also, when engine was
running the raw water exhaust was clean and oil free. So this was
temporarily eliminated as a suspect.
(5) the o-ring on the pin plug might need to be replaced along with the
head gasket. Speaking with a Universal specialist this morning, and
looking through the schematics. There is one small pipe pin in the FWD
port side corner of the cylinder head that appears to be an oil passage.
There is a small blue o-ring fitted around it. He says that might need
to be replaced when you replace the head gasket. There is an old o-ring
there, but it is highly compressed. I dont know if this would make a
space big enough for the flow described, but I suppose its possible, and
right now the only lead I have. That pin plug is located right next to
a space for the coolant system and so could be a potential weak point.
I am trying to locate a detailed schematic of the oil lubrication
system, more detailed than the general diagram in my service manual. So
that we can find all the potential locations where pressurized oil
interfaces closely with the coolant system. If anyone might have had or
heard of a similar issue with this engine, any information would help us
- as we are all sort of baffled.
Because this issue started immediatly after removing/replacing the head
it appears most likely connected, however I cant get a good explanation
for how such fast transfer of oil into coolant could be possible - and
what the most likely culprit would be. Less likely, but still a
possibility, would be an independent problem occured in the block,
coincidentally at the same time as removing the head.
This is turning into somewhat of a nightmare - and would be
extraordinarily grateful for any help from all you who have been working
on this engines for any insight. Unfortunately, we were supposed to be
leaving 2 weeks ago for a month cruise around the Hawaiian islands for
my masters research. So we're trying to get it figured out asap to
salvage whats left of the trip. Any ideas/comments/advice would be a
godsend.
Thanks in advance. And would be happy to answer any and all questions.
Feel free to call me too, if you have an idea (215-485-2484). I'm on
Hawaii time, but you can call anytime 24/7 (really, wake me up in the
middle of the night, I'm desperate for help).
Best,
Jon Whitney
"Eyewhitness"
1979, Catalina 38 Hull #54
Honolulu, Hawaii
Jonathan Whitney
Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology
Zoology Dept., University of Hawaii at Manoa
2538 McCarthy Mall, Edmondson 152
Honolulu, HI 96822
Phone: (215) 485-2484
Email: jw2 at hawaii.edu
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/20
100601/967c3c1b/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 08:32:35 -0400
From: "RICHARD KILROY" <dickkilroy at comcast.net>
To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
Subject: Re: [C38] NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
Message-ID: <002e01cb024f$aefd5120$6701a8c0 at hsd1.ma.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Johnaton: You mentioned the salt water pump but not the fresh water
pump, check it for leaks.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/20
100602/4fcd4b98/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:09:51 -0400
From: "Charles B. Finn" <charles at finn.ws>
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Subject: Re: [C38] NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant
Message-ID: <4C06662F.9030000 at finn.ws>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
Jonathan,
Sorry to hear of your predicament. Problems like this are frustrating
to nightmarish.... and always expensive!
There is no oil cooler in the 5424 to at least give you some help! I
suspect you are dealing with more than one issue here, but let's
eliminate the obvious. I think the symptom you need to focus on is the
very high oil pressure it would require to pump all your oil out to the
cooling system in so short a time. First thing to do is to check oil
pressure by taking out the oil pressure switch and installing an oil
pressure gauge. You might have a malfunctioning oil pump, because that
is way to much oil flow in the time you state (this could be a problem,
but I really doubt this pump could do this).
I would also check the oil dipstick hole while running the engine. I
suspect you might find a lot of pressure at this location and there
should be almost none to negative pressure.
You should also look to the seal you mention that circulates oil around
the front of the engine (but I suspect that is way too much oil to be
leaking around a seal).
Carefully examine your head gasket to see if you can see traces of fluid
flow (you already have it off as you indicate it is going back to the
shop).
If the head checks out, I think what might explain is happening here is
a crack in the port side of your #2 cylinder block and/or perhaps a
piston ring issue. The head gasket and a cracked/warped cylinder head
are usually the problem, but if these have been eliminated.... I would
take out the glow plug and pressure test the cylinder (leak down test).
The reason I would focus on this location is the combination of blown
injector and this problem manifesting after the head repair.
One final counsel might be on the problem of "sunk costs." You already
have a lot of time and money in this and it gets harder and harder to
just let go..... If time is your major concern, you might be better
off going with another engine. This can be difficult given your
location and ten thousand dollars would keep me looking for a "fix," but
without the luxury of time....
Let us know how this works out and all the best!
Chuck Finn
Mighty Quinn #114
Great Lakes
On 6/1/2010 11:32 PM, Jonathan Whitney wrote:
> I'm having a serious issue that has been stumping several mechanics
> that maybe people experienced with the Universal 5424/M30 would be
> familiar with.
>
> Problem:
> Engine oil moving rapidly into freshwater coolant system. When
> running engine, within one minute, emulsified oil and water are
> overflowing from top of header tank. And within five minutes of
> running entire 5 quarts of oil can be emptied into coolant system.
> Small amounts of emulsified oil fall back into oil crankcase, however
> the overwhelming majority of the flow is from the oil side to the
> coolant side.
>
> Background:
> Engine is Universal 5424, original 1979, no hour meter so unsure of
> hours. Purchased boat 6 months ago.
> Was having problem starting after a water in fuel contamination
> issue. Middle injector had tip of nozzle blown off (tip physically
> gone after inspection). Had all three injectors looked at and
> rebuilt. Once new injectors were in and entire fuel system
> overhauled, still not starting. After removing air intake manifold,
> eventually got to start, but discovered it was only firing off 2
> cylinders (middle cylinder where blown tip occured was not firing).
> Feared an issue in the cylinder head - so removed the head and brought
> to a head specialist to have tested. Pressure tests showed that valve
> seats in middle and aft cylinder were not sitting right. Got a valve
> job and entire cylinder head reworked. Got head back, installed new
> head gasket ordered from Torreson (matches old head gasket).
> Installed new head gasket (in proper orientation) and re-conditioned
> cylinder head. Torqued to spec (56 lb/ft in order indicated in
> service manual) reinstalled rocker assembly, air intake manifold,
> exhaust manifold, etc. Readjusted the valve timing to spec (.007 inch
> on intake valves, and .009 inch on exhaust valves). Installed valve
> cover, new injectors, etc.
>
> Started engine, and it fired right up (that problem fixed), but within
> a minute had emulsified oil/water flowing from top of header tank.
> Initially thought could have been oil from removing cylinder head, so
> flushed coolant system with little bit of soap and water till water
> cleared. Drained all oil, flushed oil system with gallon of diesel,
> drained all diesel, replaced oil filter. Filled with new oil to upper
> level on dipstick (approximatly 4.5 quarts). Started engine again,
> and within one minute have more emulsified oil/water from coolant
> system. And tried to continue flushing with freshwater thinking that
> this oil/water was not flushed out. Ran five minutes, gray frothy
> emulsified oil still not stopping. Shut down. Checked oil level
> (dipstick showed no oil). Tried to pump out oil and nothing in the
> oil pan --> indicating nearly 5 quarts of oil was pumped into
> freshwater coolant system in under five minutes.
>
> Initial potential diagnosis from my mechanic (whom has been involved
> in all these major steps) and several other diesel specialists now
> involved.
> (1) blown head gasket --> head gasket is still intact and in proper
> orientation
> (2) cylinder head cracked --> although it was fresh from a trusted
> specialist -- this is still a possibility and its going back to him to
> be retested. However, this is seeming unlikely as the speed to which
> the oil goes into coolant, a crack in the head or the gasket not
> sitting right wouldn't permit that amount of flow even under high oil
> pressure.
> (3) first thing everyone says is "there must be a problem with the oil
> cooler". As far as I know, there is no oil cooler on this engine, and
> there doesn't appear to be any external oil cooler added at some
> point. An oil cooler is not mentioned in the description of the oil
> lubrication system in the service manual, or under any part list
> published for this engine. From what I can tell - it doesn't have
> one. However, I'd love for someone else who has this engine to tell
> me 100% it doesn't. Or if there is one...where the hell is it?
> (4) oil seal in the raw water pump are leaking. This could explain
> why oil would be disappearing, but not how it gets into the freshwater
> system, unless the raw water pump and the heat exchanger failed. So I
> replaced the seals on the raw water pump, just to be sure. And
> pressure tested the heat exchanger and there are no leaks. Also, when
> engine was running the raw water exhaust was clean and oil free. So
> this was temporarily eliminated as a suspect.
> (5) the o-ring on the pin plug might need to be replaced along with
> the head gasket. Speaking with a Universal specialist this morning,
> and looking through the schematics. There is one small pipe pin in
> the FWD port side corner of the cylinder head that appears to be an
> oil passage. There is a small blue o-ring fitted around it. He says
> that might need to be replaced when you replace the head gasket.
> There is an old o-ring there, but it is highly compressed. I dont
> know if this would make a space big enough for the flow described, but
> I suppose its possible, and right now the only lead I have. That pin
> plug is located right next to a space for the coolant system and so
> could be a potential weak point.
>
> I am trying to locate a detailed schematic of the oil lubrication
> system, more detailed than the general diagram in my service manual.
> So that we can find all the potential locations where pressurized oil
> interfaces closely with the coolant system. If anyone might have had
> or heard of a similar issue with this engine, any information would
> help us - as we are all sort of baffled.
>
> Because this issue started immediatly after removing/replacing the
> head it appears most likely connected, however I cant get a good
> explanation for how such fast transfer of oil into coolant could be
> possible - and what the most likely culprit would be. Less likely, but
> still a possibility, would be an independent problem occured in the
> block, coincidentally at the same time as removing the head.
>
> This is turning into somewhat of a nightmare - and would be
> extraordinarily grateful for any help from all you who have been
> working on this engines for any insight. Unfortunately, we were
> supposed to be leaving 2 weeks ago for a month cruise around the
> Hawaiian islands for my masters research. So we're trying to get it
> figured out asap to salvage whats left of the trip. Any
> ideas/comments/advice would be a godsend.
>
> Thanks in advance. And would be happy to answer any and all
> questions. Feel free to call me too, if you have an idea
> (215-485-2484). I'm on Hawaii time, but you can call anytime 24/7
> (really, wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm desperate for
help).
>
> Best,
> Jon Whitney
> "Eyewhitness"
> 1979, Catalina 38 Hull #54
> Honolulu, Hawaii
>
>
> Jonathan Whitney
> Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology
> Zoology Dept., University of Hawaii at Manoa
> 2538 McCarthy Mall, Edmondson 152
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Phone: (215) 485-2484
> Email: jw2 at hawaii.edu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/20
100602/7e18fff1/attachment.html>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Listserve mailing list
Listserve at catalina38.org
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
End of Listserve Digest, Vol 6, Issue 218
*****************************************
More information about the Listserve
mailing list