[C38] Stanchions

Max Soto maxsoto at gmail.com
Sat Jan 29 14:23:26 EST 2011


I think that the toe rail was made by Taco... Not sure where I get this.....
I also have worm holes  on the gates area and a couple on the bow pulpit
area....weird!!!! It seem the gates and stern pulpit is a common
issue........
Max


2011/1/29 Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com>

> Don't know who made the toerail, but the same cross section is used by
> several different boat builders of the era so it must be an established
> extruder...I had the same thing on a 1980 Mirage.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws> wrote:
>
>>  Steve,
>> I called Garhauer yesterday about stanchions and the toerail.  Mike told
>> me they never made the toerail as that is not something they are set up
>> for.  He was interested inI think that the toerail was made by TAmy idea of
>> a toerail stanchion, but would make no comment until he had seen what our
>> toerail looks like.  He offered to work with me on this after I got him some
>> specs/pictures of our rail.  Does anyone have a cross-sectional view and/or
>> measurements?
>>
>> If I were to guess, I would say our toerails were made of T6 aluminum as
>> it extrudes and anodizes well and is one of the hardest and strongest
>> types.  I have cut this stuff on a lathe and it does not remotely behave
>> like ordinary aluminum!  You need ear protection.   I agree with Steve O.
>> that low bidder could be our problem here, which of course would vary by
>> batches and years.  All aluminum I am aware of can contain some small levels
>> of iron, but I recall Grumman successfully figured out how to reduce this
>> back when they were the aircraft frame folks.  By the way, don't try to weld
>> on this stuff as it requires TIG and a lot of practice!  One more thing,
>> aluminum can corrode when exposed.  The neat thing about this stuff is it
>> almost immediately begins to form an impermeable skin as part of the
>> corrosion process that essentially stops further corrosion and it is able to
>> do this across a wide PH range.  Now you know pretty much all I know about
>> this stuff!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chuck Finn
>> Mighty Quinn #114
>> Great Lakes
>>
>> On 1/29/2011 12:19 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>
>> Phil,  I don't think a backing plate is worth the effort- the underside
>> clearance/access is very tough.  Use oversize washers if possible.  If the
>> holes are rotted out, fill with epoxie and redrill.  My toe rail also has
>> worm holes, near the gates.  I assumed the reason was low bidder on the
>> extrusions with much more impurities included.  The aircraft specs would
>> preclude what we a seeing.  Has anybody contacted Garhauer about this
>> problem?  I can understand corrosion at the SS fasteners, but these worm
>> holes appear unrelated.
>> Cheers, Steve O
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:09:44 -0500
>> From: steve.ribble at gmail.com
>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>
>> Great thought about the backing plate, Phil.  I've always considered
>> stanchions and lifelines to be expendable in the event of emergencies...that
>> they were basically to break your fall, not necessarily there to support the
>> weight of the world.  That said, obviously I/we don't want to replace these
>> things every month or two so they need to be stout enough.  It seems like
>> one of the first things to go, when looking at the entire stanchion "system"
>> is the through-bolt hole (as Phil indicated) and that a backing plate would
>> disperse the loads/forces among the 4 bolts/holes rather than the two that
>> experience expansion when torque is applied the the stanchion. Long story
>> short, assuming we're all not going to run out and replace our stanchions
>> for another design, that Garhauer already has the the backing plate (the
>> base prior to welding to the stanchion tube) so it should be an easy and
>> relatively inexpensive process to upgrade the holding power of our existing
>> equipment.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>  I thought I would explain what I think I know about metals from my
>> aircraft engineering background.  I agree that the toe rail on our C38s is
>> an aluminum alloy.  Pure aluminum does create its own oxide coating which
>> retards corrosion.  But, when it is alloyed to increase its hardness and
>> strength, it loses the ability to protect itself unless it has a pure
>> aluminum cladding on the surface.  Typically these alloys have an anodic
>> coating (the dark surface on our toe rails) or a chemical conversion coating
>> which created this protective oxide on the exterior surface.
>>
>>
>>
>> Near the bow of my C38 the toe rail has started to pit.  I don’t think it
>> has progressed much lately with all the rain water that we get here in the
>> NW.  I doubt that it has weakened the extrusion much at all.  I agree with
>> the statements about the loads on the stanchions.  Later model Catalinas
>> have the stanchions that fit into sockets molded into the toe rail as well
>> as being bolted through base plates to the deck.  BTW I am pretty sure that
>> the deck area where the toe rails are attached on our C38s is solid un-cored
>> fiberglass.  A lot of the looseness of the bases is caused by the rocking of
>> the bolts, and subsequent elongation of the holes, because they don’t have
>> backing plates to hold them vertical.  I think that there are ways to
>> securely attach our stanchions to the toe rail if they are also bolted
>> inboard to the deck.  I have also thought about having the existing
>> stanchions modified so that they angle outboard to allow more room to pass
>> around the shrouds.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Gay
>>
>> C38 049 Que Linda
>>
>> Everett WA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* listserve-bounces at catalina38.org [mailto:
>> listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] *On Behalf Of *Anders Finn
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 4:25 PM
>>
>> *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really? I thought that toe rail was aluminum. Should be pretty resistant
>> to salt corrosion. I think what my old man is trying to say is that the toe
>> rail is at least as strong, if not stronger than the plywood under the deck
>> to which the stanchions are currently screwed into. It would be interesting
>> to know the dimensions of the toe rail if anyone has them (I think my dad is
>> going up to measure in a few weeks) and I can figure out what kind of moment
>> could be applied safely to the toe rail if one could find a way to apply the
>> load evenly.
>>
>> Anders
>>
>> On 01/28/2011 04:06 PM, Don Strong wrote:
>>
>> The toe rail really is not that tough.  As well, in salty boats as old as
>> mine (1980), the toe rail has some indication of chemical decomposition
>> along the bottom side. I treat my toe rail with care. Like the rest of this
>> wonderful 30 year old device, I hope it lasts longer than I last.
>> Don
>>
>> On 1/28/11 2:15 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>
>> Think about pivot point. If there is indeed only two bolts, the only thing
>> keeping it from pivoting is compression between the plate and the toe rail.
>> The bolts are there simply to provide a leverage point. That's what concerns
>> me.
>>
>> Anders
>>
>> On 01/28/2011 02:13 PM, Chuck Finn wrote:
>>
>> This type of fitting is used by:  C&C, Hunter, PDQ, Bayfield, and Freedom
>> yachts.  I think the footprint is the entire toerail, which is significantly
>> stronger than our pad fastened to a plywood deck....   If I was to worry
>> about strength, it would be the shear force exerted on the bolts if the
>> toerail stanchion base is not a good fit with our toerail...  I would weld
>> the stanchion to the base rather than rely on the throughbolt.  I can also
>> comment on the strength of at least the C&C toerail as I have raced these
>> boats and that means bounced a time or two off the lines and stanchions!
>> Have crewed Hunters as well, but don't remember the stanchion design.
>>
>> I think my next step will be to contact Garhauer as they are reputed to
>> have first made our toerail.  I also could easily fabricate my own bases
>> that would incorporate Ander's ideas.
>>
>> But, will it look pretty?
>>
>> Chuck Finn
>> Mighty Quinn #114
>> Great Lakes
>>
>>
>> On 1/28/2011 4:16 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I just got a chance to look at this. I think Steve is right here
>> about a large drop in torsional resistance. However, that being said, those
>> stanchions forward of the cockpit are not really THAT strong. I would like
>> to see at least a three bolt design with a larger outer plate to provide
>> some surface to disperse the torque to the hull.
>>
>> Anders
>>
>> PS. They say they're used on Freedom 32's however, from pictures, I can't
>> see anything resembling a toe rail that would support load on them.
>>
>>
>> On 01/28/2011 12:42 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>
>> Chuck,  If I understand the concept correctly, it is a very poor
>> structural design.  There is no foot print to react the outward cantilever
>> force on the stantion- you need a four bolt pattern to react this force in
>> all directions and I only saw two fasteners parallel to the toe rail.
>> Cheers, Steve O
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:27:31 -0500
>> From: charles at finn.ws
>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>
>> Max,
>> Here is the rigrite url:
>> http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail
>>
>> As you can see, this would put the stanchion on the outside edge of our
>> toerail and would eliminate the base.  This would result in a lot of room on
>> the deck.  I am thinking of using two of the bases for the gate and then
>> moving forward.  My issue about this would look is that I will have to
>> connect to the stern rails and bow pulpit, which would remain as they are.
>> I would also have to fill all the holes in the deck from where the plates
>> were and re-route the holding tank vent, but that would be worth it for the
>> extra room on deck and the elimination of possible leaks.
>>
>> What to our C38 folks think?
>>
>> Chuck Finn
>> Mighty Quinn #114
>> Great Lakes
>>
>>
>> On 1/27/2011 11:21 AM, Max Soto wrote:
>>
>> Chuck, Did you send a link for the rigrite stanchions?
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Max
>>
>> 2011/1/26 Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws>
>>
>> One way I know it is sailing season is the scrape on my shin obtained as I
>> climb from the cabin to the cockpit.  The other wound is the bruises on the
>> side of both legs as I bang into the stanchions.  I love the look of our
>> boats, but the design idea that the stanchions should follow the inward bend
>> of the tumblehome really does not work for me.  There just is not enough
>> deck for a guy my size.  I am still considering bending and re-welding the
>> current stanchions into a vertical position, but perhaps even a better
>> solution would be to remove the current stanchions altogether and going with
>> a toe rail stanchion like you see on C&C yachts.  Rigrite.com has these.
>> Attaching stanchions directly to our toerail seems to be a viable option as
>> the rail is really heavy duty.  Additionally, you can buy the bases and use
>> the current tubing assuming it is not the light weight stuff Tom has
>> commented on.   This would give us a lot more deck space for size 11 feet.
>> Just thinking aloud at this point, but I really am tired of the bruising!
>>
>> Chuck Finn
>> Mighty Quinn #114
>> Great Lakes
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/25/2011 3:25 PM, Max Soto wrote:
>>
>> Good to know that they share the same foot print... If the removable
>> stanchion's base also fits, I'll go for that one next time..... A little
>> heavier, but if they bend, it will be so much easier to replace.......
>>
>> Thanks, Max
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/1/25 Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>
>> Max, yes...same foot print.  Garhauer has a square-ish base that I think
>> are for removable stanchions and a one that's trapezoidal for the
>> solid/fixed type, which is what mine are (also characterized by the "flat
>> top").  I can't speak to the quality comment that Tom refers to, I just know
>> mine have been on the boat for 30 years and only needed to be replaced
>> because the over-wintering force exerted by the shrinkwrap caused them to
>> bend.  I thought I saw reinforced/gate style stanchions on their website,
>> but don't know about the footprint.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tom T. <tdtron at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> After hurricane Dennis (the Menace) skirted Tampa Bay a few years ago with
>> a near miss, we got tangled up with a piling with the surge and had our
>> starboard lifelines damaged along with the stanchions on that side.
>>
>>
>>
>> I replaced the stanchions near the rail at the aft end of the cabin
>> with Catalina Direct stanchions. I replaced both sides so they would match.
>> My boat had standard stanchions and those stanchions should have been the
>> reinforced gate entry types which are heavier and more expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn't shop Garhauer and I probably should have but the original
>> stanchions were JUNK so anything was an upgrade!  The metal in the
>> replacement stanchions was much heavier gage and with the reinforced foot
>> design of the gate type stanchion there was no comparison between quality or
>> strength of the two types.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason I bring this up is some of our members may have stanchions like
>> the ones I replaced which may be a disaster waiting to happen.  If the
>> stanchions at the front of the gate are like the thin, weak ones like I had
>> they could fail.  The thin tube original stanchions may be OK for middle of
>> the lifeline mounts but where the gates terminate they are inadequate
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Troncalli
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Max Soto <maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>
>> *To: *Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
>>
>> *Sent:* 1/25/2011 12:00:20 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, do they have the same footprint???
>>
>> Regards, max
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Our stanchions are Garhauer...I replaced a couple last season...about
>> $50 each.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Max Soto <maxsoto at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Steve,
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not surprised if they were made by Garhauer......
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Max
>>
>> 2011/1/24 Steve Smolinske <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
>>   Does anyone know who made our stanchions?
>>
>>
>> Steve Smolinske
>> President
>>
>> 425-227-4500
>> www.RainierRubber.com <http://www.rainierrubber.com/>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Steve Ribble
>> 207/852-0971
>>
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>> --
>> Steve Ribble
>> 207/852-0971
>>
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>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>
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>>
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>
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>
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-- 
Max Soto
C38 #198 ESTANCIA
Puntarenas, Costa Rica
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