[C38] FW: 8/6/2011 1300 PDT Hassle update

tdtron at earthlink.net tdtron at earthlink.net
Tue Aug 9 21:25:29 EDT 2011


I am for anything that will work to help Larry with his starter problems
but if the Bendix drive isn't disengaging, it is probably pretty screwed up
and I'm still suspecting that is his problem.  Playing armchair quarterback
mechanic is interesting but until Larry gets home we really are only
guessing. 

I do have two different theories:

1.	The return spring on a starter gear (aka the Bendix) is very strong and
it should return the pinion gear to the disengaged position unless it
somehow got destroyed in the engaged position. I would think that if that
Bendix is riding on the ring gear, that alone should kick the gears apart
if there was hope for them to disengage.  If that won't shake the two
apart, I doubt much else would either UNLESS the return spring is broken
which is rare but not unheard of.  I'm betting Larry no longer has a return
spring in his starter pinion gear and the remnants of the spring are
holding the pinion meshed with the ring gear on the flywheel.  

2.	One other possibility is that the retainer clip on the end of the
armature shaft holding the Bendix on the starter shaft could have corroded
or broken off allowing the Bendix to ride out past the end of the shaft
causing engagement, even if the spring was still intact.  The pinion gear
is smaller than the spring housing so if the Bendix did become loose, it
could only move out far enough to engage the gears before it would be
stopped by the spring housing hitting the flywheel.  This could cause an
intermittent starting ability,depending on where the gear ends up at any
given time.

You may wonder why I have called the starter gear a Bendix.  It's because
I'm old and trained by people even older than me!  Bendix had the patent on
the early starter pinion gears and most technicians still call them a
Bendix today. The starter gear on our boats is pretty much like they were
nearly a century ago.  The Bendix drive relies on the inertial spin of the
armature to make the gear slide out on a twisted groove shaft.  The other
type of starter uses a fork to push the pinion out like a manual
transmission fork and an electric solenoid activates the fork.  The Bendix
design is lighter, smaller, and cheaper so it has won over in most
applications.

I hope my insights will not be an embarrassment to me when Larry gets home.
LOL


Tom Troncalli
Dr. of Worthless Trivia




> [Original Message]
> From: <dmills3 at comcast.net>
> To: <tdtron at earthlink.net>; Catalina 38 List serve
<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Date: 8/9/2011 5:32:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [C38] FW: 8/6/2011 1300 PDT Hassle update
>
>
>
> Maybe the bolts that hold the starter in (particularly the top which has
a nut ) has worked its way loose and the starter is cocked a little and
that is causing the Bendix Drive to not disengage. If they can reach back
in there and wiggle the starter then that may be it. 
>
> The easiest bolt to get to is the bottom bolt and if it is loose, they
may be able to tighten it up enough to straighten the starter and check it
every couple of days. 
>
> The top nut is very hard to get to with the alternator in place and you
most likely need an obstruction wrench previously mention on other
listserves. 
>
> Dan #108   
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: tdtron at earthlink.net 
> To: "Catalina 38 forum" <Listserve at catalina38.org> 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:33:19 PM 
> Subject: Re: [C38] FW: 8/6/2011 1300 PDT Hassle update 
>
>
>
> Hello Max and forum, 
>   
> The problem with Larry's starter seems to be that the Bendix on the
starter has stuck in the engaged position making the starter run by the
flywheel instead of it disengaging once the engine has started. 
>   
> A brush type DC motor is a generator if turned by any mechanical source,
like an engine.  Some gasoline golf carts use a generator to provide both
starting and recharging.  These starter/generators are very large but
geared so they run at very low speeds to prevent over reving.  Some
Gravely tractors also used this starter/generator system.  You can attach
an old generator from an old car of the days before alternators to a
battery and it will spin like any electric motor. 
>   
> There is essentially no difference between a generator and a starter
motor other than the starter having a Bendix gear that is supposed to
mechanically disengage the spur gear once electrical source of power to it
is stopped.  If that Bendix sticks in the engaged position, the starter
becomes an unregulated generator supplying very high voltage and amperage
to the electrical system.  This is a very dangerous situation.  Not only
can it burn out everything in the system like the alternator, light bulbs,
electronics, etc, but it can also overload the wiring causing fires. 
>   
> They really need to disconnect the starter battery the second they get
the engine running and have everything turned off when they crank the
engine.  Hopefully it's not too late and hopefully they have figured this
out already. 
>   
> Tom Troncalli 
>   
>
>   
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Max Soto 
> To: tdtron at earthlink.net ; Catalina 38 Listserve 
> Sent: 8/9/2011 12:58:52 PM 
> Subject: Re: [C38] FW: 8/6/2011 1300 PDT Hassle update 
>
> At least the starter was not destroyed and they were able to start the
engine...  Weird that they are having the overheat problem on the
electrical system, but at least they can charge batteries and make
water..... 
>
>
> Max 
>
>
> 2011/8/9 tdtron at earthlink.net < tdtron at earthlink.net > 
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow!  I have never heard of a starter armature not coming apart
when the starter Bendix didn't disengage.  The low RPM's of our engines
has probably saved the day because in a higher RPM car that starter
wouldn't be fit even for a core exchange. 
>   
> This is truly good news, even if they are now experiencing overcharging
from that "generator" starter.  Hopefully the starter and ring gear will
hold up long enough to get them home.  
>   
> As a side note, if Larry does end up having to replace the ring gear
after he gets home, it will be a good time to get rid of the steel flex
plate on the flywheel and replace it with a PYI synthetic flex plate.  The
original flex plates on our boats tend to fatigue the springs over time and
when the springs do break apart, there is no positive contact left to turn
the transmission.   The engine just feels like it is in neutral and those
little pieces of springs just go around and around making a mess of the
bell housing.  I know, it has happened to me and others I have spoken
to.  The PYI flex plate has positive engagement even if the synthetic
damping material fails so you keep on going regardless.  I also replaced
my Universal shaft coupling with a PYI synthetic coupling at the same time
and the engine became much smoother at all speeds.  It was like adding
more cylinders to the engine, there was no comparison to the original
components.  I can't say which of the two components made the most
improvement but as a pair, the results were nothing short of wonderful. 
>   
> Keep us posted on Larry, thanks. 
>   
> Tom Troncalli 
>   
>
>
>
>
>   
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Steve Smolinske 
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve 
> Sent: 8/9/2011 7:51:54 AM 
> Subject: [C38] FW: 8/6/2011 1300 PDT Hassle update 
>
>
>
> Passing along an update from Team Hassle.  I passed along the suggestion
to jump the solenoid not sure if that is what got their motor going or not
but the next day they got it started, as you can see below its not an ideal
situation but at least they have the ability to recharge and make
additional water.   
>   
> Steve 
> #312 Peregrine 
> Seattle 
>
>   
>
> Hi All 
> He is David's Email for today. 
> Keep the Faith 
>
> Tamara J. Summers 
>   
>
>
>
>
>
> Hassle called at 1300 PDT and I spoke to Larry. 
>
>   
>
>     • Their current position is 35 38.9N 149 25.5W. This is east of
where we advised that they head yesterday. Please see the map below. 
>     • They covered almost 90 miles yesterday in variable winds 
>     • The wind is currently about 10 knots from the east and they are
making around 6 knots on a course of 000. I advised them to head north on a
course of 345 and to fall off to the west if possible. I told them that
they would need to be up around 42-44 before they would see the westerly
winds. 
>     • They are now able to start the engine; however the electrical
system quickly overheats, apparently from excessive charging. They suspect
that the starter motor is still engaged and acting as a generator. Since
they have bypassed the fuses, this is a dangerous situation and they can
only run the engine for around 20 minutes at a time. 
>     • They are making water, using each of the house batteries
sequentially. A battery at full charge is able to produce about four
gallons of water. 
>     • They have been fishing and so far have caught 2 Dorado. 
>
>
>   
>
>   
>
> Other items: 
>
>   
>
>     • Next to each of the parts, I�ve indicated the person who
volunteered to get them. We still need volunteers for the start switch and
the fuel separator filters. 
>     • Adrian and Larry will stay aboard the boat and bring it to Long
Beach. Caleb and John will probably get of at Moss Landing. So there are 2
� 4 slots available for the return crew. 
>
>
>   
>
> Parts required: 
>
>   
>
>     • DK - 4 � ANL 150 fuses 
>     • JM - 1 - Starter motor part number is #200948 the engine is a
Westerbeke Universal B M-25XPB. (Kubota) 
>     • 1 � Push button start switch 
>     • DJ - 2 � Auto float switches for the bilge pump 
>     • DK - 1 � Package 10-12 gauge butt connectors 
>     • 2 � Fuel separator filters 
>
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>
>
>   
>
> Notes: 
>
>   
>
> ?          The red track is Expedition�s proposed track to
route them around the high. 
>
> ?          The wind barbs are as of this afternoon. Although the
route appears to be directly through the high, there will be significant
changes in the location of the high over the next few days. 
>
> ?          The marks with dates reflect Hassle�s actual
location on that date. 
>
> ?          The computer estimate of time to Moss Landing is
around 14 days. 
>
>   
>
> David Kraai 
>
> President 
>
>   
>
>   
> _______________________________________________ 
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>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Max Soto 
> C38 #198 ESTANCIA 
> Puntarenas, Costa Rica 
>
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