[C38] Thanks Ray: Autopilot installation, Discreet Charm
Don Strong
drstrong at ucdavis.edu
Sun Aug 16 09:35:49 EDT 2020
Indeed. To weather with the big keel, the Alpha is great, downwind in
waves, all over the place. I have inquired about the cost and install of
a Pelagic control head.
Regards, Don
On 8/15/20 6:54 PM, Ray Torok wrote:
> Don,
>
> Not to pile on here, but the new generation of autopilots, with three
> axis gyro capabilities, are astonishingly superior to those of the
> olden days. I'm usually accused of being a dinosaur, but the facts
> are that the old AP's simply cannot steer a C38 downwind in waves, and
> the new ones can, better than most humans in my experience. So while
> your ram/quadrant assembly looks okay, my guess is you would be very
> impressed with a new control head.
> two cents,
>
> Ray
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:52 PM Don Strong <drstrong at ucdavis.edu
> <mailto:drstrong at ucdavis.edu>> wrote:
>
> Max: Thanks for your interesting comments on my Alpha install.
> the Yacht Specialties pedestal and wheel are real fossils, but
> they continue to work; "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I must
> say that the only problems in 18 years of sailing with this
> autopilot are with nuts that loosen in the mechanism; I have
> learned to fix these with Locktite and drilling holes through the
> nut and bolt for securing with wire or a key.
> My sailing buddies are condescending about my "analog" rig, but
> hey, It works!
> Best of luck with your install.
> Regards, Don
>
> On 8/15/20 12:07 PM, Max soto wrote:
>> Nice blog Don, that autopilots has a very simple set up. Love the
>> fail safe engaging mechanism. The tiller arm is huge. Whoever
>> installed it was really lucky that the boat has a Yacht
>> Specialties radial wheel drive, which gives more space available
>> than the Edson. I’m getting ideas from every pic I see.
>> I got a complete New old stock Autohelm ST6000 With a huge linear
>> drive actuator, which I’ll have to make it fit no matter what.
>> Will take it to the boat next week after lockdown.
>> The Cabo Rico building facility closed six years ago, anda that’s
>> where I got my autopilot system for $80 only!
>> I’m planning to replace the rudder in a near future, and after
>> seeing the space available underneath an upsidown radial wheel
>> installation, I’ll be following that route.
>>
>> Regards
>> Max Soto A.
>> +506-8312-1367
>> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>>
>>> On Aug 14, 2020, at 12:28, Don Strong <drstrong at ucdavis.edu>
>>> <mailto:drstrong at ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Max, Ray. The Alpha analog autopilot that came to us with
>>> Discreet Charm has worked for the 18 years that we have owned
>>> the boat. The install was very professional. Scroll down in the
>>> blog to Alpha autopilot. I would appreciate any comments. Have
>>> thought that if it failed I would go with a Pelagic as did Ray.
>>> Regards, /don
>>>
>>> http://techdiscreetcharm.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> On 8/14/20 11:11 AM, Ray Torok wrote:
>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. I think I got carried away.
>>>>
>>>> If you can get a tiller arm in there, that is surely the better
>>>> way to go.
>>>>
>>>> The C34 attachment to the wheel did not look that great to me,
>>>> in light of how much force the actuator can generate, but if it
>>>> works, it works.
>>>> I chickened out on that type of attachment, because I am used
>>>> to San Francisco, where it's often pretty windy, and you can
>>>> really load things up.
>>>> I did not change the position of the radial wheel, as that
>>>> looked like a big job too (aluminum-stainless issues), and I
>>>> thought it would have required
>>>> remounting the turning blocks at the base of the pedestal
>>>> to get the cable leads right. It might have been smarter to
>>>> start over with a new wheel mounted higher.
>>>>
>>>> The hard rudder stops were interesting, because the first time
>>>> I tried it, the structure of the bulkhead at the aft end of the
>>>> cockpit was so flexible and delaminated,
>>>> that it just didn't work. I ended up injecting epoxy resin
>>>> with fillers into the voids to stiffen it up.
>>>>
>>>> Buena suerte, Ray
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:18 PM Max soto <maxsoto at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wow Ray, that was a huge job! The rudder stop looks great.
>>>> Did you radial drive wheel was installed like that? Mine is
>>>> installed upside down. The bolts are below the wheel.. I
>>>> saw the same on Steve Smolinske’s boat, but I think they
>>>> made it on purpose to raise the wheel and install a tiler
>>>> arm. They managed to install a tiller arm below the wheel.
>>>> Some people have installed the actuator directly to the
>>>> wheel, which is what I was planning to do.. seems to be a
>>>> common set up on Catalinas, even on the C42, but your set
>>>> up seems much stronger.
>>>> The first pic is from a C34. Doesn’t look that good, but it
>>>> works.
>>>> Second pic is from Steve’s boat. By raising the wheel I’ll
>>>> have more room for work on a packing gland.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Max Soto A.
>>>> +506-8312-1367
>>>> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>>>> <image0.jpeg>
>>>> <image1.jpeg>
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 13, 2020, at 15:24, Ray Torok <torok13731 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:torok13731 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure if this will help, but a couple of years ago I
>>>>> installed a below deck autopilot system.
>>>>>
>>>>> This turned into a big job. I suppose I got carried
>>>>> away. Most people probably would not go to this much
>>>>> trouble or be okay paying someone to do it. However, I
>>>>> would note that it worked great on a trip from San
>>>>> Francisco to La Paz and back. We also replaced the old
>>>>> Raymarine control head with a Pelagic. The old system
>>>>> simply could not control the boat when sailing downwind
>>>>> with quartering seas. The new system drives the boat
>>>>> better than most people.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to install a below deck actuator for a couple of
>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> ·Bypass the steering cables to eliminate the slop
>>>>> introduced by the cable linkage and stretch (the old
>>>>> system used a motor/toothed gear assembly mounted on the
>>>>> pedestal)
>>>>>
>>>>> ·Have backup steering in case a cable breaks
>>>>>
>>>>> The main problems were:
>>>>>
>>>>> ·Limited space for the actuator
>>>>>
>>>>> ·Not enough space on the rudder post to install a small
>>>>> tiller arm above or below the quadrant (really a 360
>>>>> degree disk in this boat). *If you don’t have that
>>>>> problem, the whole project gets much easier.*
>>>>>
>>>>> ·The quadrant is not strong enough to take the load that
>>>>> the actuator can generate if there is simply a bolted
>>>>> attachment (Edson warns not to attach a ram to the quadrant).
>>>>>
>>>>> I ended up designing and building a set of aluminum rings
>>>>> that bolt onto the quadrant to distribute the load
>>>>> imparted by the ram. At the same time I installed hard
>>>>> rudder stops that a block mounted on the upper ring
>>>>> engages to limit rudder travel and prevent the ram from
>>>>> overrunning its range. I also installed a rudder position
>>>>> sensor that the control head uses to limit rudder travel
>>>>> when the autopilot is engaged, so it never tries to drive
>>>>> the rudder against the hard stop.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ended up with a Lecomble & Schmitt hydraulic actuator,
>>>>> because it was the only one I found that would fit in the
>>>>> space available, as the pump and actuator were separate
>>>>> units connected by hoses. Longer electric units would
>>>>> extend into the cockpit locker and appeared much more
>>>>> difficult to mount. The static end of the actuator is
>>>>> bolted to an aluminum channel that is bolted to the
>>>>> underside of the cockpit sole behind the pedestal. I put
>>>>> the pump at the aft end of the cockpit locker, with the
>>>>> actuator just behind the adjacent partial bulkhead. I
>>>>> also cut a large hatch into the floor of the cockpit
>>>>> locker to get better access to both the engine and the
>>>>> quadrant area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Selected photos are attached. I would be happy to discuss
>>>>> any of this further if that might help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray #38 Thira
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:10 PM Max soto
>>>>> <maxsoto at gmail.com <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>> It’s been nine years since we were in this subject.
>>>>> I’m going to make a second attempt to install a below
>>>>> deck unit. Will like something stronger than the
>>>>> wheelpilot.
>>>>> I assume/hope that someone might have installed one In
>>>>> this years. If so, please send pics and tips.
>>>>> I already have a Raymarine linear drIve type 1 ready
>>>>> to be installed. Hope I can make it fit somehow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Max Soto A.
>>>>> +506-8312-1367
>>>>> C38 Estancia #198
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> <linear actuator - pump.JPG>
>>>>> <Al channel to hold actuator.JPG>
>>>>> <Al rings.JPG>
>>>>> <mounting bolts for actuator support.JPG>
>>>>> <Al rings - rudder stops - position sensor attachment.JPG>
>>>>> <pump enclosure.JPG>
>>>>> <pump in cockpit locker.JPG>
>>>>> <quadrant - rudder position sensor.JPG>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Donald R. Strong
>>> Professor,
>>> Department of Evolution and Ecology
>>> and
>>> The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
>>> University of California, Davis,
>>> Davis CA
>>> 95616
>>> 530 752 7886
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Donald R. Strong
> Professor,
> Department of Evolution and Ecology
> and
> The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
> University of California, Davis,
> Davis CA
> 95616
> 530 752 7886
>
--
Donald R. Strong
Professor,
Department of Evolution and Ecology
and
The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
University of California, Davis,
Davis CA
95616
530 752 7886
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