[C38] Universal 5424 Charging problems

[Tom T.]

Hello Rob,

Diesels are compression ignition and they don't require any electricity to
run after started.  To stop a diesel, either the fuel, air  or compression
must be stopped from entering the engine.

Our diesels have a spring detent on the throttle that allows the throttle
to go lower than idle to kill off the fuel supply from the injector pump to
the injectors.  If the throttle cable is not adjusted right, or if you have
another mechanical malfunction of the throttle assembly, you may not be
able to move your throttle back past the idle position to starve the engine.

The ignition on our boats is not electrical but the pick-up fuel pump
supplying fuel to the injector pump is electrical and that is energized by
the accessory terminal on the starter switch.  More importantly, the
starter switch also supplies the fields of the alternator to make the
alternator work.  Alternators are not "self exciting" and need an outside
source of electricity to get them started.

If you turn off the starter switch before you stop the engine, you can
damage the alternator because of the loss of field load under a charging
condition can reverse the inductive charge in the alternator back into the
diode pack destroying it.  For that reason, it's always better to kill the
engine first before turning off the starter switch.

I hope this isn't confusing but the bottom line is, killing our diesels is
a mechanical issue to starve the engine of fuel.  The ignition itself has
no electrical components and the ignition is by compression only.

Tom Troncalli
The Renata #95
St. Pete, Fla




> [Original Message]
> From: Rob Cornelsen <robcornelsen at yahoo.com>
> To: <tdtron at earthlink.net>; Catalina 38 Listserve
<Listserve at catalina38.org>
> Date: 10/10/2005 2:14:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [C38] Universal 5424 Charging problems
>
> Tom,
>
> I have another and previously thought to be unrelated
> problem that the engine will not stop running.  I
> thought this was a sign that it was sucking its own
> oil and I have had to use the compression release to
> stop it.  Is this actually an electrical problem?
>
> Rob
>
> --- "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Hello Russ,
> > 
> > I have not heard of a marine alternator having a
> > higher charging rate than
> > a similar automotive unit but that is an interesting
> > thought though.  Any
> > alternator that is regulated above about 13.8 volts
> > will percolate the
> > battery causing loss of electrolyte.  Overcharging
> > will shorten the battery
> > life, especially if the electrolyte gets below the
> > top of the plates.
> > 
> > I think overcharging is more of a problem than
> > undercharging.  A battery
> > charged with a "float" charger will charge almost to
> > full charge but the
> > battery will last much longer and with almost no
> > maintenance.  Some float
> > chargers will charge to maximum charge but they just
> > won't do it as fast as
> > a charger having a slightly higher output voltage.
> > 
> > The alternator does need to be voltage matched to
> > the specific type of
> > battery for optimum charging and most quality "smart
> > chargers" allow the
> > charging voltage to be adjusted to the type of
> > battery being charged. 
> > Unless you bypass the built in charger in the
> > alternator and substitute it
> > with a remote alternator regulator, I would just
> > live with the built in
> > regulator on the alternator if the output is
> > anywhere near 13.8 volts. 
> > When is the last time you heard of anyone
> > overcharging or undercharging the
> > battery in their car by driving?
> > 
> > I think the more critical charger is the shore
> > charger because that charger
> > will be on-line most of the time. Overcharging at
> > the dock on an unattended
> > boat can cause more battery damage than running your
> > engine when you use
> > the boat occasionally, even if the alternator
> > regulator has a high output
> > voltage.  Anyway, that's my two cents.
> > 
> > Tom Troncalli
> > The Renata #95
> > St. Pete, Fla
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Duff, Russ (R.W.) <rduff at visteon.com>
> > > To: tdtron at earthlink.net <tdtron at earthlink.net>;
> > Catalina 38 Listserve
> > <Listserve at catalina38.org>
> > > Date: 10/10/2005 7:40:11 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [C38] Universal 5424 Charging
> > problems
> > >
> > > I thought marine alternators had a higher output
> > voltage than automotive
> > > models to fully charge deep cycle batteries?  
> > >
> > > Sincerely, 
> > > Russ Duff 
> > > Catalina 38, Hull #112 
> > > "AVANTURA" 
> > > Lake Erie 
> > > Grosse Ile, Michigan 
> > > RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> > > [mailto:Listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On
> > Behalf Of Tom T.
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:50 PM
> > > To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> > > Subject: Re: [C38] Universal 5424 Charging
> > problems
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob,
> > >
> > > I don't have the specs on the original alternator
> > with me because my boat
> > is
> > > about 500 miles from me and my alternator notes
> > are on the boat.
> > >
> > > Before you give up on your original alternator,
> > first check to see if the
> > > electrical power is even getting to your battery. 
> > The original wiring
> > > called for the alternator to feed the cockpit
> > engine control harness
> > through
> > > a couple of wiring plugs in the harness, through a
> > direct feed amp meter,
> > > and back through the same harness and plugs and
> > finally to the battery
> > bank.
> > >
> > > With the original harness, any of the in-line
> > harness plugs could corrode
> > > and even the amp meter itself could corrode making
> > an open or high
> > > resistance circuit.  Because of the long harness
> > length, the original
> > > harness would lose alternator power even if all
> > wiring plugs and amp meter
> > > were perfect which is seldom the case.
> > >
> > > An upgrade to the original system, if you have not
> > done so yet, is to run
> > > the alternator output feed directly to the battery
> > bank and either convert
> > > the amp meter on the engine control panel to a
> > voltmeter or a shunt
> > operated
> > > amp meter which doesn't require the entire output
> > of the alternator to
> > feed
> > > through it on the long distance to the control
> > panel and back.  I prefer
> > the
> > > voltmeter because it tells the state of charge. 
> > If a battery shorts, an
> > amp
> > > meter will give a false sense of security because
> > it may show a high rate
> > of
> > > charge when all you are doing is cooking a shorted
> > battery which will not
> > > take a charge.  Neither the modern shunt type
> > ampmeter or voltmeter take
> > any
> > > significant amperage back to the cockpit panel
> > making both a much safer
> > and
> > > more reliable solution.
> > >
> > > An easy way to check if the above original harness
> > is your problem is to
> > > remove the wire on the alternator output terminal
> > and make a heavy 10 Ga
> > or
> > > larger wire to replace it.  With the new wire go
> > directly from the output
> > > terminal to the battery bank.  If your battery
> > bank charges with the new
> > > jumper cable, you are a prime candidate for the
> > upgrade harness and meter
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > I'm sure I can find a copy of the upgrade
> > information that was posted in
> > > Mainsheet if you need to make the upgrade.
> > >
> > > If this jumper feed cable doesn't correct your
> > charging problems, you have
> > > another charging system you can use.  You can
> > charge your new alternator
> > on
> > > Vi$a, Ma$tercard, etc.
> > >
> > > Your original 5424 alternator was probably a
> > Motorola with the Japanese
> > > mount dimensions and there are many alternators
> > that will fit without
> > paying
> > > the ransom price of the Universal replacement as
> > Mark and others
> > > have correctly reported.   The only problem is
> > that the new alternator
> > > needs to have a tachometer pickup coil so it will
> > have to be from a diesel
> > > application.
> > >
> > > Tom Troncalli
> > > The Renata #95
> > > St. Pete, Fla
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: empty <empty1 at ntlworld.com>
> > > > To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> > <Listserve at catalina38.org>
> > 
> === message truncated ===>
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