[C38] The Catalina Smile on Discreet Charm
D. R. Strong
drstrong at ucdavis.edu
Mon Oct 1 12:22:40 EDT 2007
Dear Glen:
Discreet Charm is hull #50, 1980. We have owned her for 5 years. At the
survey haul out, there was no smile.
When she was hauled 9 mos. later in need of a bottom job, she had no smile.
She got her second bottom job from us December, 2006, almost exactly 4
years after the first job, and she had a modest smile which we caulked.
Don
Les wrote:
> Sorry, forgot to remention the support issue. The foot of the keel is
> not parallel with the boat bottom, but rather slants down from the
> front. Therefore, the keel must be blocked in the center of the foot or
> forward so the aft end is not being pressured. If the aft end is
> pressured, this can lever the keel, and further aggravate the smile.
>
> Regards,
> Les H
> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 22:50 -0700, Les wrote:
>
>> Hi, Glenn,
>> The Catalina smile is a crack that will appear around the root of the
>> keel on the leading edge. It appears, as far as I know on all the boats
>> built by Catalina based on the S&S molds. The keel is 8000 pounds
>> hanging on bolts from the bottom of the bilge. Because the keel is
>> swept, the weight is concentrated on the after end, and the forces
>> against the keel when the boat is sailing hard tend to twist the keel on
>> the boat, a stress develops at the point farthest from the fulcrum
>> point, which on our boats is the leading edge at the root of the keel
>> where it joins the fiberglass keel stub. This area was caulked, ground
>> down, and belted with fiberglass at the factory. but that was 25+ years
>> ago. Gravity, forces from sailing, stress, and an occasional grounding
>> all have contributed to the keels condition on the boats. And as was
>> pointed out, not supporting the keel correctly will worsen the
>> condition. However, it will not break these hulls (at least I have
>> never heard of it happening, and the surveyor I hired for JACE when she
>> was Infinity said these boats were basically bulletproof.) Here in
>> southern California, these boats are highly desired, so it is not a big
>> issue. The smile is basically a cosmetic thing, that requires an
>> occasional foundation and makeup as a dancer friend of mine once said.
>> When you see it, fix it, but don't worry about it unless you get more
>> than 1/2 an inch crack (in that case, something somewhere is losing its
>> strength and needs some work, or the boat has been run full tilt into
>> something). Someone else may have better information or more detailed
>> data about the smile, its causes and origins.
>>
>> I just know I love my boat, and this is what I have heard from several
>> different sources, including yards, and some avid racers on these boats.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Les H
>> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 20:19 -0700, Glenn Terry wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a 1983 build that I believe is in the production run that has
>>> the smile. My boat does not have it. Could someone give me a
>>> description or a picture of it. I am starting to get worried.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> G!enn
>>>
>>> --
>>> Glenn Terry
>>> OEM Software Licensing
>>> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>>> 4180 Network Circle
>>> USCA18-312
>>> Santa Clara, CA 95054
>>> w-408-404-8966 x4-0966
>>> f-408-404-8966
>>> glenn.terry at sun.com
>>>
>>> S. Orton wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't take the chance. Greater support at the aft end will cause a
>>>> moment (rotation) on the keel which could put the forward end into tension
>>>> causing the crack to open up.
>>>> Steve----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Rodriguez, Enrique (Procure, ClaimNet)"
>>>> <Enrique.Rodriguez at thehartford.com>
>>>> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 6:11 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [C38] The Catalina Smile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't you ask the yard to support the keep along most of its
>>>>> length?
>>>>>
>>>>> Enrique
>>>>> Talisman 1998 MK2
>>>>> Sailing from Essex, CT
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of S. Orton
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:47 AM
>>>>> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>>>>> Subject: Re: [C38] The Catalina Smile
>>>>>
>>>>> Our boat is an '85 and is in So Cal- no winters. The purchasing survey
>>>>> in
>>>>> '97 did not show a smile and two years later a smile appeared after haul
>>>>> out at which I was clueless as to the proper method of "on the hard
>>>>> support".
>>>>> The cradle was ok , but the keel was supported near the aft end. The
>>>>> yard said all Catalina's have that smile- don't worry about it. Two
>>>>> years later at the haul out the smile grew and some of the fiberglass
>>>>> and fairing material at the smile was literally rotten and smelled
>>>>> rotten. The smile ran halfway back along the keel stub. We made about
>>>>> 5-8 templates, ground out the complete stub to keel mating profile all
>>>>> the way around exposing bare lead. The grinding was tapered from the
>>>>> mating profile a good 3-4 inches up and down. I don't remember exactly
>>>>> the depth of material that was removed at the joint, but it was
>>>>> considerable- 1/4 to 1/2 inch. It took considerable amount of heat to
>>>>> dry area, before new material could be applied. The rotten material
>>>>> removed was a combination of fiberglass and fairing material. When the
>>>>> mating surface was dry, we caulked any gaps with epoxie and glass. The
>>>>> new material was layer after layer of glass cloth and West System
>>>>> epoxie- The last few coats was epoxie thickened with silica.
>>>>> Applied the templates and sand to original faired surface. The job took
>>>>> 4-5 days. The smile repair was done six years ago and has not
>>>>> reappeared. But when the boat is hauled now, I am telling the yard
>>>>> exactly where to put the keel support- as far forward as possible with
>>>>> no supports at the aft portion of the keel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Orton
>>>>> Santa Susanna #304
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Charles" <charles at finn.ws>
>>>>> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>> Subject: [C38] The Catalina Smile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catalina says the infamous "smile" many of us have discovered on our
>>>>>> boats is due to improper positioning on our cradles when the boat is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> out
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> of the water. I have fixed (by grinding, filling, gelcoating and
>>>>>> painting) my smile three times before yearly spring launching.... only
>>>>>> to have it be there when I haul the boat in the fall. This does not
>>>>>> rule out what Catalina says as it could be the keel stabilizing after
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> winter of compression. I do know it is not due to loose keel bolts as
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> have routinely gone through the rather difficult process of tightening
>>>>>> (never found a loose one). I also know the smile appears on other
>>>>>> Catalina models as I have seen it many times here in the north where
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> all have to haul for the winter.
>>>>>> Regarding repairs on the smile. While I have done this three times
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> will probably continue, I do wonder if I am sealing moisture into the
>>>>>> repair and if this is causing even more of a problem when it freezes.
>>>>>> Any comments?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Finn
>>>>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of David L Ryan
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:26 PM
>>>>>>> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>>>>>>> Subject: [C38] Keel Stub Wood Removal?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been trying to further research this fix without too much
>>>>>>> success. Perhaps you all can help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is procedure recommended for all Catalina 38s, or is it only
>>>>>>> recommended when a boat exhibits symptoms?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, what are the symptoms? The "catalina smile"? Others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who has had the fix done to their boat? Has anyone done it
>>>>>>> themselves? Any advice or cautions? Did the procedure correct the
>>>>>>> problem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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--
Donald R. Strong
Professor
Section of Evolution and Ecology
University of California Davis
95616
530 752 7886
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