[C38] running dead down wind.
alden Andre
alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com
Tue Jun 10 11:11:24 EDT 2008
I have yet to experience what every one says (death roles). We race
offshore in Oregon to Seattle and in the Columbia River gorge where the
winds are a constant 25-30kts. I never use a symmetrical spinnaker but
an asym or a poled out 135. If we have to run ddw we go wing on wing
with the asym and the boat is stable even at high speeds. On speed we
constantly see 7-8.5 kts across the water (not across the ground current
being the effect) both up wind and down wind. Surfing you see 12-13
occasionally but never 15 kts. The one thing that bothers me is the
water that comes in the drain holes at 6.5 - 7 kts which I have to plug
at those speeds.
Alden Andre
Office: 877-550-FJ44(3544) or 503-618-1951
Cell: 503-929-8814
Fax: 503-907-5507
Email : alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com, or alden642 at comcast.net
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Today's Topics:
1. sailing by the lee (D. R. Strong)
2. Re: DEATH ROLE (Glen Robinson)
3. Re: sailing by the lee (Joseph Launie)
4. Re: DEATH ROLE (Joseph Launie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:16:20 -0700
From: "D. R. Strong" <drstrong at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: [C38] sailing by the lee
To: Catalina 38 List Server <Listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <484DB9C4.5020109 at ucdavis.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few years
ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It was very
exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and jib, no
spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces of the
big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next wave caught
up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were saved by the
quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact that we had
warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing by the lee. It
was a petrifying few seconds.
Don
--
Donald R. Strong
Catalina 38
Discreet Charm
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glen Robinson <g.a.robinson at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <498513.28413.qm at web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bobster,
Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings (with
the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, & this
may benefit others):
The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition when
dead downwind. This is exacerbated by the fact that these are not
planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots when
surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out there has
done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay, Pacific
Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in the
water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to side,
tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled, this
worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2 oscillations).
Hopefully, it's a windward broach, & we can dump the spinnaker sheet,
the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even save from
the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back downwind, crank
it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again! (Multiple broaches are
not recommended--for obvious reasons).
The leeward Broach is to be avoided! Period! The boom comes across
dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side down, and
often is pinned that way until after much corrective action. It's
really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask around,
and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, REDUCE SAIL.
These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a polled out
110 in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed past
many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way (occasionally,
old age and experience prevails over youth and testosterone).
B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
spinnaker, REACH UP a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive it
down in the blasts (you already know not to sail by the lee).
C) Finally, if you must carry the chute DDW for whatever reason, to
minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b) depowers
the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you can:
2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves from
side-to-side, and simply drive toward the chute. With a little practice
and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead it slightly,
which actually can stop the oscillations.
Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well as
the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate, leading
to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very safe!--with a
top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in less than
25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had several
minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent reaction by
the few experienced crew prevented a far worse scenario).
In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can, talk
to as many as you can, crew with experienced sailors, try a few things,
and decide for yourself.
Again, Congratulations on your new love,
Glen
C-38 SNOWBIRD
Lodi, CA
Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net> wrote:
My only experience with the death roll was when I was
traveling south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little
wind off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker. I
didn?t want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the spinnaker.
I didn?t notice that the wind had increased and there were now white
caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the boat started rolling to
port and then to starboard. Each time it rolled and started turning, it
took more helm to correct it. I quickly got the spinnaker down and
decided to never hoist the spinnaker without a main to blanket the wind
if the situation gets out of hand.
Phil Gay
C38 049 Que Linda
Everett, WA
From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
[mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of bobster94
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
To: listserve at catalina38.org
Subject: [C38] DEATH ROLE
I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She has
such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she can be a
real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the term, "Death
Role".
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:34:36 -0800
From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] sailing by the lee
To: drstrong at ucdavis.edu, Catalina 38 Listserve
<listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <484E207C.5090001 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Donald,
I have raced Macavity for 15 years with both Aysmmetric and
Symmetric chutes. Under both, the boat handles well even when the wind
comes up as long as you keep the wind angle at 150 degrees or less. I
currently use the Asym exclusively, partly because it keeps you in that
wind range. When reaching with either chute up the boat can start to
come up on you. The chute trimmer needs to be aware of this and to let
the sheet out instantly at a word or shout from the helmsman. Because
of the IOR shape, if she rolls up on her belly, the rudder comes out of
the water and nothing good follows. My chute trimmer used to trim by
the expression on my face at the helm. When he saw terror commencing he
would ease the sheet. If the boat rounds up, then the boom approaches
the water (being short it doesn't get there.) This is relatively tame
and easing the sheets, and vang will bring her back up. The term death
roll refers to a situation where the boat starts to round up and then
after the helmsman loses control, rounds down instead putting the
spinnaker pole in the water. Many boats have been dismasted by the
pressure on the mast from the pole. Get an Asy chute, eliminate the pole
and keep the rudder in the water. Joe Launie, Macavity, Commodore
D. R. Strong wrote:
> We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few
> years ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It was
> very exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and jib,
> no spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces of
> the big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next wave
> caught up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were
> saved by the quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact
> that we had warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing by
> the lee. It was a petrifying few seconds.
> Don
> --
> Donald R. Strong
> Catalina 38
> Discreet Charm
>
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:43:33 -0800
From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <484E2295.30609 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Glen,
Don't tell me you have done the Delta Ditch run in a C-38? If you
have you are a far better man than me Magee. Joe Launie, Macavity
Commodore
Glen Robinson wrote:
> Bobster,
> Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
> As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings (with
> the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, &
> this may benefit others):
> The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
> the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition
> when _dead downwind_. This is exacerbated by the fact that these are
> not planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots
> when surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out
> there has done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
> In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay, Pacific
> Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
> when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
> push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in the
> water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to
> side, tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled,
> this worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2
> oscillations).
> Hopefully, it's a _windward _broach, & we can dump the spinnaker
> sheet, the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even
> save from the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back
> downwind, crank it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again!
> (Multiple broaches are not recommended--for obvious reasons).
> The _leeward_ Broach _is to be avoided!_ Period! The boom comes
> across dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side
> down, and often is pinned that way until after much corrective
> action. It's really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
> My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask around,
> and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
> A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, _REDUCE SAIL_.
> These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a _polled
> out 110_ in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed
> past many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way
> (occasionally, old age and experience prevails over youth and
> testosterone).
> B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
> spinnaker, _REACH UP_ a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
> stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive
> it down in the blasts (you already know _not_ to sail by the lee).
> C) Finally, if you _must _carry the chute DDW for whatever reason, to
> minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
> 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
> twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b) depowers
> the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you
can:
> 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves from
> side-to-side, and simply drive _toward_ the chute. With a little
> practice and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead
> it slightly, which actually can stop the oscillations.
> Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
> is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well
> as the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
> Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate, leading
> to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
> wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
> Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
> crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
> carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very safe!--with
> a top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in less
> than 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had
> several minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent
> reaction by the few experienced crew prevented a far worse scenario).
> In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
> better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can,
> talk to as many as you can, _crew_ _with experienced sailors_, try a
> few things, and decide for yourself.
> Again, Congratulations on your new love,
> Glen
> C-38 SNOWBIRD
> Lodi, CA
>
>
>
> */Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net>/* wrote:
>
> My only experience with the death roll was when I was traveling
> south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little wind
> off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker. I
> didn't want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the
> spinnaker. I didn't notice that the wind had increased and there
> were now white caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the boat
> started rolling to port and then to starboard. Each time it
> rolled and started turning, it took more helm to correct it. I
> quickly got the spinnaker down and decided to never hoist the
> spinnaker without a main to blanket the wind if the situation gets
> out of hand.
>
> Phil Gay
> C38 049 Que Linda
> Everett, WA
>
> *From:* listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] *On Behalf Of *bobster94
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
> *Subject:* [C38] DEATH ROLE
>
> I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She has
> such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she can
> be a real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the term,
> "Death Role".
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
6/9/2008 10:29 AM
>
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