[C38] running ddw with asy for max
Max Soto
maxsoto at gmail.com
Thu Jun 12 19:07:19 EDT 2008
Hi Alden,
Thanks for the info. A few minutes ago I just got my new tacker. I'm going
to use it with my symmetrical until I buy an asy. Then, I'll be ready to
give it a try DDW on a wing and wing set up.
Thanks a lot for the pics. That North asy looks beautiful!!
Regards
--
Max Soto
C38 #198 ESTANCIA
Puntarenas, Costa Rica
2008/6/10, alden Andre <alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com>:
>
> Max, the asy flies fine ddw wing on wing. I guess it would depend on the
> cut of the spinnaker and you you have it rigged. I use a tacker that
> goes around the rolled up head sail that controls the tack and keeps it
> more stable and a adjustable tack line. Attached are some picks.
>
> Alden Andre
> Office: 877-550-FJ44(3544) or 503-618-1951
> Cell: 503-929-8814
> Fax: 503-907-5507
> Email : alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com, or alden642 at comcast.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
> listserve-request at catalina38.org
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:48 AM
> To: listserve at catalina38.org
> Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 4, Issue 164
>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: DEATH ROLE (david at dlrfilms.com)
> 2. Re: running dead down wind. (alden Andre)
> 3. Re: running dead down wind. (Max Soto)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: david at dlrfilms.com
> Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID:
> <41741.24.46.52.120.1213109560.squirrel at webmail.dlrfilms.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> (I know, I know: Someone out there has
> > done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
>
> On our run from Sapelo Sound to Wynah River, the GPS said our max speed
> was 22.4 kts.
>
> My preference is to sail INTEMPERENCE at about 6kts.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:11:24 -0400
> From: "alden Andre" <alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com>
> Subject: Re: [C38] running dead down wind.
> To: <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID:
>
> <1AF1562D40820B4982FFC49803D5EF69073FB0 at cdl01tol.CLIFFORDDEVELOPMENTGROU
> P.LOCAL>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have yet to experience what every one says (death roles). We race
> offshore in Oregon to Seattle and in the Columbia River gorge where the
> winds are a constant 25-30kts. I never use a symmetrical spinnaker but
> an asym or a poled out 135. If we have to run ddw we go wing on wing
> with the asym and the boat is stable even at high speeds. On speed we
> constantly see 7-8.5 kts across the water (not across the ground current
> being the effect) both up wind and down wind. Surfing you see 12-13
> occasionally but never 15 kts. The one thing that bothers me is the
> water that comes in the drain holes at 6.5 - 7 kts which I have to plug
> at those speeds.
>
> Alden Andre
> Office: 877-550-FJ44(3544) or 503-618-1951
> Cell: 503-929-8814
> Fax: 503-907-5507
> Email : alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com, or alden642 at comcast.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
> listserve-request at catalina38.org
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:44 PM
> To: listserve at catalina38.org
> Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 4, Issue 163
>
> Send Listserve mailing list submissions to
> listserve at catalina38.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> than "Re: Contents of Listserve digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. sailing by the lee (D. R. Strong)
> 2. Re: DEATH ROLE (Glen Robinson)
> 3. Re: sailing by the lee (Joseph Launie)
> 4. Re: DEATH ROLE (Joseph Launie)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:16:20 -0700
> From: "D. R. Strong" <drstrong at ucdavis.edu>
> Subject: [C38] sailing by the lee
> To: Catalina 38 List Server <Listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID: <484DB9C4.5020109 at ucdavis.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few years
> ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It was very
> exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and jib, no
> spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces of the
> big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next wave caught
>
> up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were saved by the
> quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact that we had
> warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing by the lee. It
> was a petrifying few seconds.
> Don
>
> --
> Donald R. Strong
> Catalina 38
> Discreet Charm
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Glen Robinson <g.a.robinson at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID: <498513.28413.qm at web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Bobster,
> Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
> As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings (with
> the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, & this
> may benefit others):
> The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
> the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition when
> dead downwind. This is exacerbated by the fact that these are not
> planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots when
> surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out there has
> done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
> In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay, Pacific
> Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
> when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
> push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in the
> water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to side,
> tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled, this
> worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2 oscillations).
> Hopefully, it's a windward broach, & we can dump the spinnaker sheet,
> the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even save from
> the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back downwind, crank
> it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again! (Multiple broaches are
> not recommended--for obvious reasons).
> The leeward Broach is to be avoided! Period! The boom comes across
> dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side down, and
> often is pinned that way until after much corrective action. It's
> really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
> My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask around,
> and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
> A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, REDUCE SAIL.
> These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a polled out
> 110 in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed past
> many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way (occasionally,
> old age and experience prevails over youth and testosterone).
> B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
> spinnaker, REACH UP a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
> stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive it
> down in the blasts (you already know not to sail by the lee).
> C) Finally, if you must carry the chute DDW for whatever reason, to
> minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
> 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
> twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b) depowers
> the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you can:
> 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves from
> side-to-side, and simply drive toward the chute. With a little practice
> and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead it slightly,
> which actually can stop the oscillations.
> Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
> is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well as
> the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
> Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate, leading
> to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
> wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
> Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
> crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
> carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very safe!--with a
> top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in less than
> 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had several
> minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent reaction by
> the few experienced crew prevented a far worse scenario).
> In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
> better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can, talk
> to as many as you can, crew with experienced sailors, try a few things,
> and decide for yourself.
> Again, Congratulations on your new love,
> Glen
> C-38 SNOWBIRD
> Lodi, CA
>
>
>
> Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net> wrote:
> My only experience with the death roll was when I was
> traveling south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little
> wind off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker. I
> didn?t want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the spinnaker.
> I didn?t notice that the wind had increased and there were now white
> caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the boat started rolling to
> port and then to starboard. Each time it rolled and started turning, it
> took more helm to correct it. I quickly got the spinnaker down and
> decided to never hoist the spinnaker without a main to blanket the wind
> if the situation gets out of hand.
>
> Phil Gay
> C38 049 Que Linda
> Everett, WA
>
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of bobster94
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> To: listserve at catalina38.org
> Subject: [C38] DEATH ROLE
>
>
>
> I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She has
> such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she can be a
> real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the term, "Death
> Role".
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:34:36 -0800
> From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [C38] sailing by the lee
> To: drstrong at ucdavis.edu, Catalina 38 Listserve
> <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID: <484E207C.5090001 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Donald,
> I have raced Macavity for 15 years with both Aysmmetric and
> Symmetric chutes. Under both, the boat handles well even when the wind
> comes up as long as you keep the wind angle at 150 degrees or less. I
> currently use the Asym exclusively, partly because it keeps you in that
> wind range. When reaching with either chute up the boat can start to
> come up on you. The chute trimmer needs to be aware of this and to let
> the sheet out instantly at a word or shout from the helmsman. Because
> of the IOR shape, if she rolls up on her belly, the rudder comes out of
> the water and nothing good follows. My chute trimmer used to trim by
> the expression on my face at the helm. When he saw terror commencing he
> would ease the sheet. If the boat rounds up, then the boom approaches
> the water (being short it doesn't get there.) This is relatively tame
> and easing the sheets, and vang will bring her back up. The term death
> roll refers to a situation where the boat starts to round up and then
> after the helmsman loses control, rounds down instead putting the
> spinnaker pole in the water. Many boats have been dismasted by the
> pressure on the mast from the pole. Get an Asy chute, eliminate the pole
>
> and keep the rudder in the water. Joe Launie, Macavity, Commodore
>
> D. R. Strong wrote:
> > We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few
> > years ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It was
> > very exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and jib,
>
> > no spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces of
> > the big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next wave
> > caught up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were
> > saved by the quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact
> > that we had warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing by
>
> > the lee. It was a petrifying few seconds.
> > Don
> > --
> > Donald R. Strong
> > Catalina 38
> > Discreet Charm
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
> 6/9/2008 10:29 AM
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 80609/b96f9d7d/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:43:33 -0800
> From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID: <484E2295.30609 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Glen,
> Don't tell me you have done the Delta Ditch run in a C-38? If you
> have you are a far better man than me Magee. Joe Launie, Macavity
> Commodore
>
> Glen Robinson wrote:
> > Bobster,
> > Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
> > As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings (with
> > the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, &
> > this may benefit others):
> > The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
> > the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition
> > when _dead downwind_. This is exacerbated by the fact that these are
> > not planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots
> > when surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out
> > there has done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
> > In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay, Pacific
>
> > Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
> > when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
> > push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in the
> > water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to
> > side, tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled,
> > this worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2
> > oscillations).
> > Hopefully, it's a _windward _broach, & we can dump the spinnaker
> > sheet, the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even
> > save from the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back
> > downwind, crank it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again!
> > (Multiple broaches are not recommended--for obvious reasons).
> > The _leeward_ Broach _is to be avoided!_ Period! The boom comes
> > across dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side
> > down, and often is pinned that way until after much corrective
> > action. It's really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
> > My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask around,
>
> > and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
> > A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, _REDUCE SAIL_.
> > These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a _polled
> > out 110_ in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed
> > past many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way
> > (occasionally, old age and experience prevails over youth and
> > testosterone).
> > B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
> > spinnaker, _REACH UP_ a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
> > stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive
> > it down in the blasts (you already know _not_ to sail by the lee).
> > C) Finally, if you _must _carry the chute DDW for whatever reason, to
> > minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
> > 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
> > twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b) depowers
> > the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you
> can:
> > 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves from
> > side-to-side, and simply drive _toward_ the chute. With a little
> > practice and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead
> > it slightly, which actually can stop the oscillations.
> > Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
> > is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well
> > as the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
> > Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate, leading
> > to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
> > wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
> > Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
> > crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
> > carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very safe!--with
>
> > a top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in less
> > than 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had
> > several minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent
> > reaction by the few experienced crew prevented a far worse scenario).
> > In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
> > better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can,
> > talk to as many as you can, _crew_ _with experienced sailors_, try a
> > few things, and decide for yourself.
> > Again, Congratulations on your new love,
> > Glen
> > C-38 SNOWBIRD
> > Lodi, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > */Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net>/* wrote:
> >
> > My only experience with the death roll was when I was traveling
> > south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little wind
> > off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker. I
> > didn't want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the
> > spinnaker. I didn't notice that the wind had increased and there
> > were now white caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the boat
> > started rolling to port and then to starboard. Each time it
> > rolled and started turning, it took more helm to correct it. I
> > quickly got the spinnaker down and decided to never hoist the
> > spinnaker without a main to blanket the wind if the situation gets
> > out of hand.
> >
> > Phil Gay
> > C38 049 Que Linda
> > Everett, WA
> >
> > *From:* listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] *On Behalf Of *bobster94
> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> > *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
> > *Subject:* [C38] DEATH ROLE
> >
> > I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She has
> > such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she can
> > be a real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the term,
> > "Death Role".
> > _______________________________________________
> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
> 6/9/2008 10:29 AM
> >
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> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
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>
>
> End of Listserve Digest, Vol 4, Issue 163
> *****************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:47:21 -0600
> From: "Max Soto" <maxsoto at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [C38] running dead down wind.
> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
> Message-ID:
> <95c2e96c0806100847q3a6b6629xde802ae937c196e0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Running DDW - Wing on wing with an asymmetrical spinnaker?? I tought
> that
> was not possible!!!
> Is the asy stable this way? I find it hard to use a genoa without a
> pole,
> so, how does the asy behaves?
> --
> Max Soto
> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>
>
> 2008/6/10, alden Andre <alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com>:
> >
> > I have yet to experience what every one says (death roles). We race
> > offshore in Oregon to Seattle and in the Columbia River gorge where
> the
> > winds are a constant 25-30kts. I never use a symmetrical spinnaker but
> > an asym or a poled out 135. If we have to run ddw we go wing on wing
> > with the asym and the boat is stable even at high speeds. On speed we
> > constantly see 7-8.5 kts across the water (not across the ground
> current
> > being the effect) both up wind and down wind. Surfing you see 12-13
> > occasionally but never 15 kts. The one thing that bothers me is the
> > water that comes in the drain holes at 6.5 - 7 kts which I have to
> plug
> > at those speeds.
> >
> > Alden Andre
> > Office: 877-550-FJ44(3544) or 503-618-1951
> > Cell: 503-929-8814
> > Fax: 503-907-5507
> > Email : alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com, or alden642 at comcast.net
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
> > listserve-request at catalina38.org
> > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:44 PM
> > To: listserve at catalina38.org
> > Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 4, Issue 163
> >
> > Send Listserve mailing list submissions to
> > listserve at catalina38.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > listserve-request at catalina38.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > listserve-owner at catalina38.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Listserve digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. sailing by the lee (D. R. Strong)
> > 2. Re: DEATH ROLE (Glen Robinson)
> > 3. Re: sailing by the lee (Joseph Launie)
> > 4. Re: DEATH ROLE (Joseph Launie)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:16:20 -0700
> > From: "D. R. Strong" <drstrong at ucdavis.edu>
> > Subject: [C38] sailing by the lee
> > To: Catalina 38 List Server <Listserve at catalina38.org>
> > Message-ID: <484DB9C4.5020109 at ucdavis.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few
> years
> > ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It was very
> > exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and jib, no
> > spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces of the
> > big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next wave
> caught
> >
> > up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were saved by
> the
> > quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact that we had
> > warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing by the lee. It
> > was a petrifying few seconds.
> > Don
> >
> > --
> > Donald R. Strong
> > Catalina 38
> > Discreet Charm
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >
> http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/200
> > 80609/b0463096/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Glen Robinson <g.a.robinson at sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> > To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
> > Message-ID: <498513.28413.qm at web81205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Bobster,
> > Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
> > As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings (with
> > the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, &
> this
> > may benefit others):
> > The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
> > the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition
> when
> > dead downwind. This is exacerbated by the fact that these are not
> > planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots when
> > surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out there
> has
> > done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
> > In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay, Pacific
> > Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
> > when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
> > push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in the
> > water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to
> side,
> > tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled, this
> > worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2
> oscillations).
> > Hopefully, it's a windward broach, & we can dump the spinnaker sheet,
> > the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even save
> from
> > the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back downwind, crank
> > it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again! (Multiple broaches
> are
> > not recommended--for obvious reasons).
> > The leeward Broach is to be avoided! Period! The boom comes across
> > dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side down, and
> > often is pinned that way until after much corrective action. It's
> > really slow, and can be damaging, as well as dangerous!
> > My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask around,
> > and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
> > A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, REDUCE SAIL.
> > These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a polled out
> > 110 in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed past
> > many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way
> (occasionally,
> > old age and experience prevails over youth and testosterone).
> > B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
> > spinnaker, REACH UP a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
> > stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive
> it
> > down in the blasts (you already know not to sail by the lee).
> > C) Finally, if you must carry the chute DDW for whatever reason, to
> > minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
> > 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
> > twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b) depowers
> > the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you
> can:
> > 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves from
> > side-to-side, and simply drive toward the chute. With a little
> practice
> > and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead it
> slightly,
> > which actually can stop the oscillations.
> > Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
> > is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well
> as
> > the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
> > Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate, leading
> > to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
> > wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
> > Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
> > crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
> > carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very safe!--with
> a
> > top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in less
> than
> > 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had several
> > minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent reaction by
> > the few experienced crew prevented a far worse scenario).
> > In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
> > better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can,
> talk
> > to as many as you can, crew with experienced sailors, try a few
> things,
> > and decide for yourself.
> > Again, Congratulations on your new love,
> > Glen
> > C-38 SNOWBIRD
> > Lodi, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net> wrote:
> > My only experience with the death roll was when I was
> > traveling south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little
> > wind off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker.
> I
> > didn?t want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the
> spinnaker.
> > I didn?t notice that the wind had increased and there were now white
> > caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the boat started rolling to
> > port and then to starboard. Each time it rolled and started turning,
> it
> > took more helm to correct it. I quickly got the spinnaker down and
> > decided to never hoist the spinnaker without a main to blanket the
> wind
> > if the situation gets out of hand.
> >
> > Phil Gay
> > C38 049 Que Linda
> > Everett, WA
> >
> > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of bobster94
> > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> > To: listserve at catalina38.org
> > Subject: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> >
> >
> >
> > I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She has
> > such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she can be a
> > real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the term, "Death
> > Role".
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/200
> > 80609/e93c6736/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:34:36 -0800
> > From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [C38] sailing by the lee
> > To: drstrong at ucdavis.edu, Catalina 38 Listserve
> > <listserve at catalina38.org>
> > Message-ID: <484E207C.5090001 at cox.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Donald,
> > I have raced Macavity for 15 years with both Aysmmetric and
> > Symmetric chutes. Under both, the boat handles well even when the wind
> > comes up as long as you keep the wind angle at 150 degrees or less. I
> > currently use the Asym exclusively, partly because it keeps you in
> that
> > wind range. When reaching with either chute up the boat can start to
> > come up on you. The chute trimmer needs to be aware of this and to let
> > the sheet out instantly at a word or shout from the helmsman. Because
> > of the IOR shape, if she rolls up on her belly, the rudder comes out
> of
> > the water and nothing good follows. My chute trimmer used to trim by
> > the expression on my face at the helm. When he saw terror commencing
> he
> > would ease the sheet. If the boat rounds up, then the boom approaches
> > the water (being short it doesn't get there.) This is relatively tame
> > and easing the sheets, and vang will bring her back up. The term death
> > roll refers to a situation where the boat starts to round up and then
> > after the helmsman loses control, rounds down instead putting the
> > spinnaker pole in the water. Many boats have been dismasted by the
> > pressure on the mast from the pole. Get an Asy chute, eliminate the
> pole
> >
> > and keep the rudder in the water. Joe Launie, Macavity, Commodore
> >
> > D. R. Strong wrote:
> > > We/ almost/ got caught in a death roll running down Big Sur a few
> > > years ago. 25 knts of north wind 10 and a huge following sea. It
> was
> > > very exciting sailing on an enchantingly beautiful day. Main and
> jib,
> >
> > > no spinnaker. The boat was accelerating to 12 knts down the faces
> of
> > > the big rollers, then stalling in the the trough before the next
> wave
> > > caught up. A strange cross wave slid us over to port, and we were
> > > saved by the quick move of our helmsman, the preventer, and the fact
> > > that we had warned each other of the risk of getting caught sailing
> by
> >
> > > the lee. It was a petrifying few seconds.
> > > Don
> > > --
> > > Donald R. Strong
> > > Catalina 38
> > > Discreet Charm
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Listserve mailing list
> > > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
> > 6/9/2008 10:29 AM
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://catalina38.org/pipermail/listserve_catalina38.org/attachments/200
> > 80609/b96f9d7d/attachment-0001.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:43:33 -0800
> > From: Joseph Launie <jlaunie at cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [C38] DEATH ROLE
> > To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
> > Message-ID: <484E2295.30609 at cox.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Glen,
> > Don't tell me you have done the Delta Ditch run in a C-38? If you
> > have you are a far better man than me Magee. Joe Launie, Macavity
> > Commodore
> >
> > Glen Robinson wrote:
> > > Bobster,
> > > Congrats on your boat! You will love it more, the more you sail.
> > > As always, Phil Gay is on the money, and I offer futher musings
> (with
> > > the presumption that you are somewhat a novice. If not, ignore, &
> > > this may benefit others):
> > > The C-38 is a typical PHRF-type hull: wide in the middle, pinched at
> > > the stern. This configuration results in a very unstable condition
> > > when _dead downwind_. This is exacerbated by the fact that these
> are
> > > not planing designs, so they only go 8-10, to maybe12, or so, knots
> > > when surfing a wave. Max. Period. (I know, I know: Someone out
> > > there has done--or heard reliable reports of--15, or 20, or more??).
> > > In my own experience, (28 years of racing IOR types in SF Bay,
> Pacific
> >
> > > Offshore, and limited-water sailing areas in the San Joaquin Delta),
> > > when we are going max speed for the conditions & the breeze tries to
> > > push us faster, if we're DDW, the hull just digs a deeper hole in
> the
> > > water, & the death rolls begin--where the chute oscillates side to
> > > side, tilting the mast one way, then the other. If not controlled,
> > > this worsens, until--WE BROACH! (Sometimes after only 1 or 2
> > > oscillations).
> > > Hopefully, it's a _windward _broach, & we can dump the spinnaker
> > > sheet, the main sheet AND THE VANG! (if timely, these steps may even
> > > save from the broach) then pump the rudder to drive the bow back
> > > downwind, crank it all in and do it again! And Again! And Again!
> > > (Multiple broaches are not recommended--for obvious reasons).
> > > The _leeward_ Broach _is to be avoided!_ Period! The boom comes
> > > across dangerously. Sails are backed, the boat has the wrong side
> > > down, and often is pinned that way until after much corrective
> > > action. It's really slow, and can be damaging, as well as
> dangerous!
> > > My experience has shown the following to be effective, but ask
> around,
> >
> > > and if any of it makes sense to you, then try some, yourself.
> > > A) To prevent death rolls, if it's really puffing, _REDUCE SAIL_.
> > > These boats only go so fast, & if they hit max speed with a _polled
> > > out 110_ in 25 knots, why fly the chute?? I have comfortably sailed
> > > past many out-of-control, overpowered spinnaker boats this way
> > > (occasionally, old age and experience prevails over youth and
> > > testosterone).
> > > B) If it's marginal wind conditions & competition dictates the
> > > spinnaker, _REACH UP_ a bit. Sailing higher than DDW is MUCH more
> > > stable--especially for an inexperienced helmsman. Remember to drive
> > > it down in the blasts (you already know _not_ to sail by the lee).
> > > C) Finally, if you _must _carry the chute DDW for whatever reason,
> to
> > > minimize the death rolls you can do 2 things:
> > > 1) CHOKE IT DOWN! Trim both spinnaker guys hard (or super-trim the
> > > twings, as appropriate). This a) pulls the corners down, b)
> depowers
> > > the chute, and c) limits its side-to-side travel. In addition, you
> > can:
> > > 2) CHASE THE CHUTE! The driver must watch the chute as it moves
> from
> > > side-to-side, and simply drive _toward_ the chute. With a little
> > > practice and feel, the driver can anticipate the chute and even lead
> > > it slightly, which actually can stop the oscillations.
> > > Remember, the C-38 has a lot of sail, and a long, thin rudder, which
> > > is easily overpowered. In extreme conditions, the helmsman (as well
> > > as the crew) must be ahead of what's happening to be in control.
> > > Also, if loaded up for long periods, the rudder can cavitate,
> leading
> > > to loss of steering control. This can be minimized by aggressively
> > > wiggling the helm from time to time to reduce the cavitation.
> > > Lastly--but perhaps most importantly: The less experienced one's
> > > crew, the more conservative one should sail. I have sailed (J-35)
> > > carrying a full spinnaker in 40 knots very fast!--and very
> safe!--with
> >
> > > a top crew; but have experienced over $20,000 damage (Cal 39) in
> less
> > > than 25 knots with a green crew. In the latter case, we also had
> > > several minor injuries (Good luck, good anticipation and excellent
> > > reaction by the few experienced crew prevented a far worse
> scenario).
> > > In offering these suggestions--gleaned from many hours with much
> > > better sailors than I--I also recommend that you read all you can,
> > > talk to as many as you can, _crew_ _with experienced sailors_, try a
> > > few things, and decide for yourself.
> > > Again, Congratulations on your new love,
> > > Glen
> > > C-38 SNOWBIRD
> > > Lodi, CA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > */Phil Gay <eyriepg at comcast.net>/* wrote:
> > >
> > > My only experience with the death roll was when I was traveling
> > > south in Saratoga Passage under engine. I noticed a little wind
> > > off the stern and wanted to try my recently acquired spinnaker.
> I
> > > didn't want to bother with the main and rigged lines for the
> > > spinnaker. I didn't notice that the wind had increased and
> there
> > > were now white caps. Soon after I hoisted the spinnaker, the
> boat
> > > started rolling to port and then to starboard. Each time it
> > > rolled and started turning, it took more helm to correct it. I
> > > quickly got the spinnaker down and decided to never hoist the
> > > spinnaker without a main to blanket the wind if the situation
> gets
> > > out of hand.
> > >
> > > Phil Gay
> > > C38 049 Que Linda
> > > Everett, WA
> > >
> > > *From:* listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> > > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] *On Behalf Of
> *bobster94
> > > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:01 PM
> > > *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
> > > *Subject:* [C38] DEATH ROLE
> > >
> > > I am new to the Cat 38 world. I am in love with this boat. She
> has
> > > such classic lines, beautiful! However, I have heard tell she
> can
> > > be a real handful downwind. Can someone educate me about the
> term,
> > > "Death Role".
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Listserve mailing list
> > > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Listserve mailing list
> > > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.1.0/1492 - Release Date:
> > 6/9/2008 10:29 AM
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
> >
> > End of Listserve Digest, Vol 4, Issue 163
> > *****************************************
> >
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> > Listserve mailing list
> > Listserve at catalina38.org
> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
> >
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>
>
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> *****************************************
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