[C38] Ice box insulation (alden)

alden Andre alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com
Wed Dec 2 20:19:15 EST 2009


Steve, there is about a 3 inch gap from the fridge to the wall . I know
this since I cut out my aft Lazzerette. If you would like some pictures
I will take some for you. I cut out the aft Lazzerette for better access
to the systems IE: engine and Rudder quadrate. I have found with the
floor and walls removed I have a lot more room. I still need to build
the false walls that go back in. Are you still going to do the Oregon
Offshore this year?

Alden Andre

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Today's Topics:

   1. Icebox Insulation (Steve Smolinske)
   2. Re: Icebox Insulation (Tom T.)
   3. Re: Icebox Insulation (Patrick Harpole)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:11:24 -0800
From: "Steve Smolinske" <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
Subject: [C38] Icebox Insulation
To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <392501BCC93AAC4EA94D28D8DB159922692516 at sockeye.4M.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Tom, and Max
 
This question is following up an earlier post of yours describing how
you insulated your ice boxes.  I have my galley torn apart to replace
the laminate tops and finish the cabinets  I was hoping with the counter
tops off I would have access to area between the icebox and the liner,
no such luck.   You mentioned you cut a hole in the aft bulkhead and
slipped insulation strips in, how much space is there between the liner
and the ice box?  Catalina suggested drilling holes from inside the box
and spraying in foam, Im not crazy about that as you can not gauge or
measure the coverage your achieving.  
 
Max, how did your project go?
 
Steve
Peregrine #312
Seattle
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:17:39 -0500
From: "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] Icebox Insulation
To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <380-220091232141739281 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Steve,

In regards to your question on insulating the ice box using spray foam
or foam board, I have done both spray foam and the hard foam board type
upgrades and both have merit.

You may want to use both types of insulation since it is impossible to
get to the forward side of the box and very hard to get to the outboard
port side of the box.

In the sail locker, I made a round hole for a round access port.  I
think it may be about 9" but access will be slightly larger if you don't
install the ring until the project is finished.  I used 1" foil backed
foam board cut in 6" wide strips and glued one after another with foam
adhesive administered from a caulk gun.  I used metal A/C tape to hold
each board strip in place until the glue had set.  Each strip was
carefully cut to make a good fit.

On the outer port hull side of the box, I insulated with small plastic
sandwich bags filled with pieces of fiberglass bat.  This is crude but I
didn't want to make that side permanent in case I ever had to remove the
ice box liner.  Spray foam is almost impossible to remove if the box
ever has to come out.  Spray foam is a very good construction material.
On our Catalina 27, I foamed between the v-berth and hull to make the
hull rigid.  You can now hit your fist against the hull and it feels
like you are hitting a concrete wall.  I drilled small holes which would
be hidden by the v-berth mattress and shot the foam into the holes using
a predetermined 5 seconds per hole which gave me the coverage I desired.
You will have to experiment with foam to get the right size after it
expands.

It is much better to shoot foam in many small shots from multiple entry
points instead of trying to fill a large area all at once because as it
expands, it can develop great expansion forces making things warp or
break, not to mention a denser and less efficient R value of the
resulting foam.  Great Stuff is my favorite but it does expand greatly
and with great force.  The newer brands of spray foam that use latex and
don't expand as greatly and are cleaner to use and clean up but they
also don't have the R value of the Great Stuff types.

I insulated my ice box in 1995 and those little "temporary" plastic
sandwich bags I filled with fiberglass mat are still in place, none has
leaked, and all are still working well.  I also used them below the ice
box because I wanted to be able to fish hoses and wires under the ice
box if needed.  If I had foamed under the ice box, I would have first
put in a piece of PVC pipe as a conduit.  I'm sure the foam would fill
every crevice better but as I mentioned, foam is forever.

Properly done, fiberglass bat has a similar R value to the urethane foam
board.  Don't use Styrofoam because it doesn't have as good of an R
value, it burns easily, and it melts from contact with many chemicals.

There is about 4 or so inches between the forward bulkhead of the sail
locker and the aft side of the ice box liner but if you use strip foam
board there, you will have to leave some room for your hand.  Insulate
the outboard hull side first or you will never be able to get your hand
there once you insulate the aft side of the box.

When I replaced my fresh water tank some years ago, I wrapped the new
water tank in plastic sheet and then used spray foam under the new tank
so it would be supported. The old tank cracked from heavy pounding in
rough seas because the tank was flat and the hull rounded leaving the
middle of the tank unsupported.  By wrapping the new tank in plastic
sheet, I can now easily remove my water tank if I ever want to.

If you could figure out how to remove the ice box from the boat, you
could wrap it with sheet like I did and foam it in place but getting the
ice box out will be a trick.

After insulating the ice box as well as I could with the foam board and
bags technique, I then made pieces of foam to line the inside of the box
with a snug fit using 2" Styrofoam.  This reduced the size of the inside
of the icebox making it easier to cool as well as giving great
insulation.  My refrigerator conversion uses the components from a small
120v refrigerator and the evaporator is in the outboard side of the
icebox.  After inserting it in place, I slid foam board pieces cut to
shape the evaporator and ice box liner for additional insulation.  I can
remove the pieces in the ice box by just lifting them out.  They are
press fit in place.

The last thing I did was glue pieces of 2" Styrofoam to the bottom of
the wood ice box top lids and sanding the foam with a sanding block so
they would fit easily with very little clearance.  I then painted them
with several coats of epoxy resin to toughen them up.  Leave enough
clearance for the epoxy coating.

I'm sure you can do a neater or better job than I did but as far as
efficiency, I can' complain on the results of my project.  Even on a
very hot day under sail and running the refrigerator on
battery/converter, the compressor cycles and uses very little battery.

My two biggest energy hogs were my Autohelm and my refrigerator.  I
fixed the refrigerator problem with insulation and I fixed the Autohelm
problem by assisting the steering wheel with bungee cords when underway
so the Autohelm only has to make small adjustments with no weather helm
imposed on it.

I can now sail in hot weather for several days without cranking my
engine because now my two solar panels will keep up with my energy
needs.

Good luck,
Tom Troncalli
"Renata" hull #95
St. Pete, Fla


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Smolinske 
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Sent: 12/1/2009 11:12:41 PM 
Subject: [C38] Icebox Insulation


Tom, and Max

This question is following up an earlier post of yours describing how
you insulated your ice boxes.  I have my galley torn apart to replace
the laminate tops and finish the cabinets  I was hoping with the counter
tops off I would have access to area between the icebox and the liner,
no such luck.   You mentioned you cut a hole in the aft bulkhead and
slipped insulation strips in, how much space is there between the liner
and the ice box?  Catalina suggested drilling holes from inside the box
and spraying in foam, Im not crazy about that as you can not gauge or
measure the coverage your achieving.  

Max, how did your project go?

Steve
Peregrine #312
Seattle
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 07:08:05 -0800
From: "Patrick Harpole" <1derful at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] Icebox Insulation
To: <tdtron at earthlink.net>,	"'Catalina 38 Listserve'"
	<listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <B372C98E1BA24EE7AA250B4ED8E1A44A at Patrick>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Steve,

 

Hello Steve,

I may have posted this before but it works well for day-sailing and
coastal
cruising.  I removed stove top and oven and replaced with small
refrigerator
(about $100).    Note to the right of the refrigerator is a black box
which
contains two propane burners..I've yet to use them.  I also have a
bar-b-que
for cooking.   If I want something "hot" I use the white microwave oven
above the refrigerator.

Patrick

"Blue eyes"

P.S.  Something "clever" is the white latch at the bottom of the
refrigerator.  I purchased it at a "baby-safety" store.  It keeps the
fridge
door closed when healed over. 

The picture is has too many bytes so if anyone wants to see what it
looks
like shoot me an e-mail at 1derful at comcast.net

 

 

  _____  

From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
[mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Tom T.
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:18 AM
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Subject: Re: [C38] Icebox Insulation

 

Hi Steve,

 

In regards to your question on insulating the ice box using spray foam
or
foam board, I have done both spray foam and the hard foam board type
upgrades and both have merit.

 

You may want to use both types of insulation since it is impossible to
get
to the forward side of the box and very hard to get to the outboard port
side of the box.

 

In the sail locker, I made a round hole for a round access port.  I
think it
may be about 9" but access will be slightly larger if you don't install
the
ring until the project is finished.  I used 1" foil backed foam board
cut in
6" wide strips and glued one after another with foam adhesive
administered
from a caulk gun.  I used metal A/C tape to hold each board strip in
place
until the glue had set.  Each strip was carefully cut to make a good
fit.

 

On the outer port hull side of the box, I insulated with small plastic
sandwich bags filled with pieces of fiberglass bat.  This is crude but I
didn't want to make that side permanent in case I ever had to remove the
ice
box liner.  Spray foam is almost impossible to remove if the box ever
has to
come out.  Spray foam is a very good construction material.  On our
Catalina
27, I foamed between the v-berth and hull to make the hull rigid.  You
can
now hit your fist against the hull and it feels like you are hitting a
concrete wall.  I drilled small holes which would be hidden by the
v-berth
mattress and shot the foam into the holes using a predetermined 5
seconds
per hole which gave me the coverage I desired.  You will have to
experiment
with foam to get the right size after it expands.

 

It is much better to shoot foam in many small shots from multiple entry
points instead of trying to fill a large area all at once because as it
expands, it can develop great expansion forces making things warp or
break,
not to mention a denser and less efficient R value of the resulting
foam.
Great Stuff is my favorite but it does expand greatly and with great
force.
The newer brands of spray foam that use latex and don't expand as
greatly
and are cleaner to use and clean up but they also don't have the R value
of
the Great Stuff types.

 

I insulated my ice box in 1995 and those little "temporary" plastic
sandwich
bags I filled with fiberglass mat are still in place, none has leaked,
and
all are still working well.  I also used them below the ice box because
I
wanted to be able to fish hoses and wires under the ice box if needed.
If I
had foamed under the ice box, I would have first put in a piece of PVC
pipe
as a conduit.  I'm sure the foam would fill every crevice better but as
I
mentioned, foam is forever.

 

Properly done, fiberglass bat has a similar R value to the urethane foam
board.  Don't use Styrofoam because it doesn't have as good of an R
value,
it burns easily, and it melts from contact with many chemicals.

 

There is about 4 or so inches between the forward bulkhead of the sail
locker and the aft side of the ice box liner but if you use strip foam
board
there, you will have to leave some room for your hand.  Insulate the
outboard hull side first or you will never be able to get your hand
there
once you insulate the aft side of the box.

 

When I replaced my fresh water tank some years ago, I wrapped the new
water
tank in plastic sheet and then used spray foam under the new tank so it
would be supported. The old tank cracked from heavy pounding in rough
seas
because the tank was flat and the hull rounded leaving the middle of the
tank unsupported.  By wrapping the new tank in plastic sheet, I can now
easily remove my water tank if I ever want to.

 

If you could figure out how to remove the ice box from the boat, you
could
wrap it with sheet like I did and foam it in place but getting the ice
box
out will be a trick.

 

After insulating the ice box as well as I could with the foam board and
bags
technique, I then made pieces of foam to line the inside of the box with
a
snug fit using 2" Styrofoam.  This reduced the size of the inside of the
icebox making it easier to cool as well as giving great insulation.  My
refrigerator conversion uses the components from a small 120v
refrigerator
and the evaporator is in the outboard side of the icebox.  After
inserting
it in place, I slid foam board pieces cut to shape the evaporator and
ice
box liner for additional insulation.  I can remove the pieces in the ice
box
by just lifting them out.  They are press fit in place.

 

The last thing I did was glue pieces of 2" Styrofoam to the bottom of
the
wood ice box top lids and sanding the foam with a sanding block so they
would fit easily with very little clearance.  I then painted them with
several coats of epoxy resin to toughen them up.  Leave enough clearance
for
the epoxy coating.

 

I'm sure you can do a neater or better job than I did but as far as
efficiency, I can' complain on the results of my project.  Even on a
very
hot day under sail and running the refrigerator on battery/converter,
the
compressor cycles and uses very little battery.

 

My two biggest energy hogs were my Autohelm and my refrigerator.  I
fixed
the refrigerator problem with insulation and I fixed the Autohelm
problem by
assisting the steering wheel with bungee cords when underway so the
Autohelm
only has to make small adjustments with no weather helm imposed on it.

 

I can now sail in hot weather for several days without cranking my
engine
because now my two solar panels will keep up with my energy needs.

 

Good luck,

Tom Troncalli

"Renata" hull #95

St. Pete, Fla

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Steve <mailto:SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>  Smolinske 

To: Catalina <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>  38 Listserve

Sent: 12/1/2009 11:12:41 PM 

Subject: [C38] Icebox Insulation

 

Tom, and Max

 

This question is following up an earlier post of yours describing how
you
insulated your ice boxes.  I have my galley torn apart to replace the
laminate tops and finish the cabinets  I was hoping with the counter
tops
off I would have access to area between the icebox and the liner, no
such
luck.   You mentioned you cut a hole in the aft bulkhead and slipped
insulation strips in, how much space is there between the liner and the
ice
box?  Catalina suggested drilling holes from inside the box and spraying
in
foam, Im not crazy about that as you can not gauge or measure the
coverage
your achieving.  

 

Max, how did your project go?

 

Steve

Peregrine #312

Seattle

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