[C38] Alternator and charging

Wed Jul 8 11:52:03 EDT 2009

For the sake of clarity, let me attempt to explain why we run the alternator output to the starter.  The starter has a very large wire going to the battery bank system.  Since the alternator and starter are very close to each other, by running the alternator output lead to the starter solenoid we are taking advantage of the very low loss large wire from that solenoid post to the battery bank.

The alternator wire does not actually feed the starter but uses the starter solenoid wire to the battery to charge the batteries.  This gives a very low loss path from the alternator to the batteries by using the existing large wire.   The alternator current bypasses the starter.  The starter was just a very convenient place to tap the alternator output.

Tom Troncalli
Renata (#95)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Smolinske 
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Sent: 7/8/2009 11:24:40 AM 
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

less wire run, rather than alternator to battery switch then back to the alternator you go half the distance, this means less voltage drop and current loss

From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Craig Steinkraus
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 6:00 AM
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

Maybe after I get to the boat and look at the wiring, it will be apparent, but as I sit here the question I have is why run the alt. output to the starter first?

Craig Steinkraus
"Wings"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Smolinske 
To: Catalina 38 Listserve 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

Max I do run it from the alternator to the starter, and then from the starter to the battery switch.  

From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Max Soto
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:52 AM
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

HI Steve, 

Now it makes sense. I thought you run the wire from the alt directly to the starter, and I was thinking how you were using the new switch, but if you have it directly hooked up to a battery bank it should be working great.
I have almost the same setup but the alt wire runs directly to the house bank. I was going to use the same ACR, but since I have different battery technologies I went for the echo charge(just 15 amps, but enough for a starting battery)..
I agree with you that the charging system has never worked as good as with this setup.

Max

2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>

Max,

ACR stands for Automatic Charging Relay,  it combines the two banks during charging and isolates during discharge.   Mine is hooked up so that when the engine starts it goes to the start bank first and then after 30 seconds connects the two banks so the voltage equalizes and then charges both.   http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386

On the bluse sea switch http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/6011_web_version.pdf  it isolates the two banks except when you need to combine for emergencies.   Rather than choices for which bank to use the old 1, 2 or 1&2 it only has on and combine.  In the on position both banks are providing power one to house one to start but are never combined unless you choose the combine option.  To charge all you do is select on and start the engine.

Steve

<http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/386>

________________________________

From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on behalf of Max Soto
Sent: Mon 7/6/2009 5:14 PM

To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

Hi Steve,

Just a couple of questions:

What's that ACR is this some kind of isolator or charging relay???
I have this switch on Estancia, but in my case the current from the alternator runs directly to the house battery bank, and a Xantrex Echo Charger tranfers current from this bank to the starting battery.

How do you charge the second battery bank??? You have to use the Blue Seas switch on "emergency start" to charge both banks at the same time??

Regards,

Max

2009/7/6 Steve Smolinske <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>

       Conclusion for everyone on this item,  I took Tom's advice and what a difference in the system.  I ended up having the alternator and starter tested and rebuilt ($125) new brushes, regulator and contacts.  When hooking it back up I ran current from the alternator directly to the starter then on to the battery switch.  The wires that use to lead the current up to the ampmeter and then back to the starter (red and orange #10) one was abandonded and the other powers the new voltmeter with an inline fuse.   I also replaced the battery switch with Blue Seas newer switch that completly isolates the house and start banks with the exception of emergency combine, just one choice on or off for normal operation, no more 1, 2 or 1&2 to confuse the admiral.  It also turns out that the problem most likely was an incorrectly installed ACR,  there are two important small wires that allow the ACR to sense both banks.  Even though the ACR wiring was probably the culprit it is a nice feeling after tearing things apart to realize that all that current from the alternator is no longer going through two undersized wires and a suspect wire harness but instead is being carried by a battery cable to the batteries.

       Steve
       Peregrine #312
       Seattle

________________________________

       From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org on behalf of Tom T.
       Sent: Mon 6/29/2009 3:27 PM
       To: Catalina 38 Listserve
       Subject: Re: [C38] Alternator and charging

       Hello Steve,

       You are correct.  The 30 amp fuse in your charging circuit is too small to carry the load if the batteries are discharged or you are running other high load applications.  I expect they may be using a small fuse to try to reduce the maximum load on the wiring harness which has been a problem in the past.

       To carry a high amperage load to your engine control panel is not only a lot of electrical loss but it can be dangerous if your harness connections are corroded.  There have been many original engine control harnesses burned up because of the high load on the amp meter wires in that harness.

       The amp meter isn't needed anyway.  You can have an amp meter showing a lot of amps but if your battery bank is shorted, you will only be creating heat on the harness and load on your engine but a shorted battery will never charge with the amp meter giving you a false sense of security.   A volt meter gives a better idea of your charging and battery conditions.

       A more practical solution to the amp meter is to replace the original amp meter with a marine grade volt meter.  To do this, you run the output of the alternator directly to your battery banks and use the original wires to the amp meter to feed a new volt meter.  You can run the feed to the volt meter from the positive side of the starter solenoid since it is very close to the alternator making a very easy conversion.

       The volt meter conversion is a very good and highly recommended upgrade.  It will make your boat safer and your alternator will perform better because more output will go to the battery bank instead of wasted in heat loss in the harness and possible faulty connectors.

       Fuse the wire that you run from the solenoid to the new volt meter.  There will be very little current on that wire now so even a small fuse like 5 amps will do fine.  The fuse should be very close to the alternator for safety.

       It has been a long time since I made this modification on my boat but I believe the harness wire used for the volt meter conversion is an orange wire.  I wrote an article for Mainsheet several years ago about this conversion but I don't remember what year or month it was but I'm sure I can find a draft copy in my archives if you need it, just let me know and I'll look for it.

       Good luck,

       Tom Troncalli
       Renata (Hull #95)

               ----- Original Message -----

               From: Steve Smolinske <mailto:SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>
               To: Catalina 38 Listserve <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
               Sent: 6/29/2009 4:35:25 PM
               Subject: [C38] Alternator and charging

               Tom T, I'm hoping you can add some insight on this.   I suspected my system wasn't charging so I took the alternator and starter off and had them both tested, they are fine, and since there off I took the precaution to have the regulator, brushes and contacts replaced.  Going over the wiring diagram for the M30 They call out #10 wire with a 30 amp fuse inline from the amp meter to the Starter Solenoid.  Knowing that a regulator varies charge based on battery condition/charge and rpm isn't a 30 amp fuse undersized, and why a fuse anyway, shouldn't the wire be sized correctly to handle the highest load the system would see.

               Steve Smolinske
               President

               4M Company, Inc.
               15660 Nelson Place South
               Seattle, WA  98188
               425-227-4500

               www.rainierrubber.com <http://www.rainierrubber.com/>

               The information contained in this email may be confidential and/or proprietary in nature and is intended for the recipient of the email only.  Please treat all information contained in this and any communication with the 4M Company as such.  Thank you.

               P Before printing, think about ENVIRONMENTAL responsibility

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-- 
Max Soto
C38 #198 ESTANCIA
Puntarenas, Costa Rica

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