[C38] water heater plumbing
Max Soto
maxsoto at gmail.com
Sat Aug 22 13:10:11 EDT 2009
Tom, Thanks a lot,
I'll consider this for the installation. I wasn't even aware that there were
cap with that bypass. Thanks for the tip..
If you still have the Kubota part number for your fresh water pump, please
send it!!
Regards,
Max
2009/8/22 Tom T. <tdtron at earthlink.net>
> Hi Max,
>
> I installed my expansion tank on the side of the fuel tank mounted on a
> board hanging from the vertical portion of the engine compartment on the stb
> side. I ran the vinyl tube under the engine. I mounted it there because it
> is out of the way and easy to fill from that position.
>
> I expect my expansion tank is about an inch below the filler cap on the
> engine. If the expansion fluid level is equal to or higher than the filler
> cap on the engine, you will spill your expansion tank fluid at the filler
> neck.
>
> I expect the best level is as high as you can mount it and still have the
> top of the expansion tank at or below the engine filler neck.
>
> Make sure your cap is a cap designed for an expansion tank also. The
> expansion tank will not work with an old style radiator cap without the
> rubber bypass valve. Any automotive parts house should be able to provide a
> correct cap.
>
>
> Tom Troncalli
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Max Soto <maxsoto at gmail.com>
> *To: *Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
> *Sent:* 8/22/2009 12:14:48 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [C38] water heater plumbing
>
> Tom,
>
> I have an an expansion tank that I need to install. I was planning to
> install it at the same level as the filler
> neck on the exhaust manifold.
> Is this how it should go, or doesn't matther how high or low you install
> it??
> Regards,
> Max
>
> 2009/8/20 alden Andre <alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com>
>
>> I just have to say a few things about engines and heating .
>>
>> 1. your engines have two systems a raw water and coolant system
>> 2. raw water has a geared pump with impeller. It acts as air does on
>> your radiator on your car.
>> 3. coolant system - has a pump that is driven off your belt drive the
>> system is the same as your car.
>>
>> Things that can cause overheats
>> 1. raw water flow- bad heat exchanger, bad impeller.
>> 2. Coolant system-no coolant, bad pump(worn out, leaking sucking air),
>> blown head gasket causing air to get pumped into the system. Air in
>> system from not bleeding properly with the water tank. Bad heat
>> exchanger.
>>
>> If you have raw water flowing out of the boat and your coolant is
>> flowing the most probable cause is a bad coolant pump(belt driven) or a
>> leak in the head gasket.
>>
>> This is my two cents and this and a dollar will won't get you a cup a
>> coffee at Starbucks.
>>
>>
>> Alden Andre
>> Cell: 503-929-8814
>> Office: 503-618-1951
>> Fax: 503-907-5507
>> Alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
>> listserve-request at catalina38.org
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:00 AM
>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>> Subject: Listserve Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Water Heater Plumbing (david at dlrfilms.com)
>> 2. Re: Water Heater Plumbing (Tom T.)
>> 3. Re: Water Heater Plumbing (Tom T.)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:30:29 -0700
>> From: david at dlrfilms.com
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <23bee7e3df1527cd33966bd2adbe0c67.squirrel at webmail.dlrfilms.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> My engine appears to be a bit of a frankenstein's monster, and I'm not
>> sure if I have the butterfly valve, but I will be looking for it this
>> afternoon when I go though the below procedure! Also, for clarity, I
>> wan't
>> talking about the raw water impeller, but the impeller on the
>> recirculating pump. But having tried to open that up (it's glued shut
>> with
>> all manner of sealant) and much more inclined to try the below procedure
>> first! I bet you've diagnosed the problem.
>>
>> Thanks so much!
>>
>> OTOH, we've come to regard our engine as completely unreliable which has
>> made us very handy under sail. You should have seen us in and out of
>> Block
>> Island last week!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > David,
>> >
>> > It does sound like your not getting all of the air out of the system.
>> > What you see by looking in after taking the cap off is the coolant
>> which
>> > should be a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water and is totally separate
>> > from the impeller. Fill up the system with 50/50 and start it up let
>> it
>> > run and keep an eye on the level as the antifreeze begins to circulate
>> > the level will drop sometimes making a burp or slurping sound. Keep
>> an
>> > eye on your temp. it will climb don't let it stay to long above 210,
>> > shut down the engine let it cool for a bit and start all over. It
>> can
>> > take several times doing this until the coolant is full. This
>> doesn't
>> > mean that a bubble is not still in the system. Put the cap on and
>> start
>> > up the engine, you should have a butterfly bleed valve forward and
>> > starboard of the radiator cap crack this open after the engine has
>> been
>> > running and it should vent lots of steam if there is a bubble inside.
>> > Close and wait then open this way you will get to a point that when
>> you
>> > open it only antifreeze comes out, when this happens you have bled the
>> > engine of the air. With the water heater in a takes a lot longer
>> > especially if you have removed the hoses and drained it. The last
>> time
>> > I did this it took about 30-45 minutes. This was after having
>> removed
>> > the water heater for another project.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
>> > david at dlrfilms.com
>> > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:13 AM
>> > To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>> > Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> >
>> >
>> >> After years of chronic engine heating problems, I asked this C-38
>> >> forum for suggestions.
>> >
>> > I guess it's my turn.
>> >
>> > We had now heating problems when we bought the boat, but last Summer
>> > started to get overheat alarms.
>> >
>> > Simply cracking open the system to check this and that seemed to clear
>> > it, so I have (hopefully) deduced that it is an "air-lock" problem.
>> >
>> > But the overheats have gotten more frequent and are less reliably
>> > cleared by cracking open the system.
>> >
>> > Our most recent fix it to take the hot water heater out of the loop,
>> > which works, but I can still see the air-lock forming, but without the
>> > hot water heater in the system there seems to be enough circulation
>> > pressure to push past it.
>> >
>> > Because if the deteriorating nature of the problem I am wondering if
>> the
>> > freshwater impellor might be damaged, but when I start the engine with
>> > the cap off the coolant tank, I can see (what appears to be) vigorous
>> > flow.
>> >
>> > It also seems like maybe the cap, which is spring-loaded and leads off
>> > to the overflow tank might not be working right. When the air-lock
>> forms
>> > it pushes the coolant back down the tube, but my intuition is that
>> this
>> > should function more like an air-release valve. But I'm not an engine
>> > guy in any way, so not knowing what it's supposed to do, I don't know
>> > whether or not it's working right.
>> >
>> > I'm half hoping the whole thing will overheat and seize so I can put
>> in
>> > an electric drive.
>> >
>> > Help?
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Listserve mailing list
>> > Listserve at catalina38.org
>> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date:
>> > 08/19/09 18:06:00
>> >
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>> > Listserve mailing list
>> > Listserve at catalina38.org
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:37:59 -0400
>> From: "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
>> Message-ID: <380-220098420153759953 at earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>> You didn't say which engine you have but if you have the Universal 5424
>> 24hp, it was equipped with a heat exchanger too small for the
>> application
>> and the mounts to the bell housing tend to fatigue crack and fail
>> eventually.
>>
>> After you fill any properly installed cooling system, it should
>> naturally
>> "burp" any trapped air bubbles which is why you will need to add coolant
>> at
>> least once after you refill the system. If any portion of the system is
>> too mounted too high, as in a heat exchanger mounted to the top of the
>> engine compartment or a hot water heater mounted in the sail locker, the
>> system may never burp properly. The highest point should be the filler
>> neck on the exhaust manifold.
>>
>> I upgraded my cooling system with an expansion tank like modern cars
>> have
>> so my system is "self burping."
>>
>> There are many tricks to keep the Universal diesels cooler but the real
>> culprit in my opinion to the cooling problems of the early Universal
>> 24hp
>> diesels is the heat exchanger.
>>
>> Tom Troncalli
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > [Original Message]
>> > From: <david at dlrfilms.com>
>> > To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
>> > Date: 8/20/2009 10:13:26 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> >
>> >
>> > > After years of chronic engine heating problems, I asked this C-38
>> forum
>> > > for suggestions.
>> >
>> > I guess it's my turn.
>> >
>> > We had now heating problems when we bought the boat, but last Summer
>> > started to get overheat alarms.
>> >
>> > Simply cracking open the system to check this and that seemed to clear
>> it,
>> > so I have (hopefully) deduced that it is an "air-lock" problem.
>> >
>> > But the overheats have gotten more frequent and are less reliably
>> cleared
>> > by cracking open the system.
>> >
>> > Our most recent fix it to take the hot water heater out of the loop,
>> which
>> > works, but I can still see the air-lock forming, but without the hot
>> water
>> > heater in the system there seems to be enough circulation pressure to
>> push
>> > past it.
>> >
>> > Because if the deteriorating nature of the problem I am wondering if
>> the
>> > freshwater impellor might be damaged, but when I start the engine with
>> the
>> > cap off the coolant tank, I can see (what appears to be) vigorous
>> flow.
>> >
>> > It also seems like maybe the cap, which is spring-loaded and leads off
>> to
>> > the overflow tank might not be working right. When the air-lock forms
>> it
>> > pushes the coolant back down the tube, but my intuition is that this
>> > should function more like an air-release valve. But I'm not an engine
>> guy
>> > in any way, so not knowing what it's supposed to do, I don't know
>> whether
>> > or not it's working right.
>> >
>> > I'm half hoping the whole thing will overheat and seize so I can put
>> in an
>> > electric drive.
>> >
>> > Help?
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Listserve mailing list
>> > Listserve at catalina38.org
>> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:57:15 -0400
>> From: "Tom T." <tdtron at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
>> Message-ID: <380-220098420155715890 at earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> With all the conversation of the cooling system, I want to add one more
>> cooling tidbit from my own experience.
>>
>> I took a trip in 2002 from Tampa Bay to Key West and back. Before the
>> trip
>> we checked everything as well as we could and the engine fresh water
>> pump
>> felt good with no sign of leakage or slack in the bearing. It felt like
>> a
>> new pump so I was not concerned about it.
>>
>> 500 miles later we were trying to go directly upwind in 40 mile winds
>> against breaking waves as we tried to enter through the Skyway bridge to
>> Tampa Bay at 3am in the morning and tired from the rough seas as we
>> tried
>> to make it to our marina.
>>
>> We needed to use the motor to assist us in sailing double reefed to
>> windward through the bridge opening when the engine started to make
>> noise
>> and overheat. We made it past the bridge so we could sail without the
>> engine and I went below to check on the engine. The fresh water pump,
>> which had seemed like new, had failed and frozen up causing the v-belt
>> to
>> fail also.
>>
>> We sailed up Tampa Bay to within a hundred yards of the dock and only
>> then
>> cranked the engine to assist in docking in the still heavy winds early
>> in
>> the morning with no one awake on the dock to assist us.
>>
>> The reason for the pump failure was age, not wear. The Universal pumps
>> use
>> sealed bearings and are not water lubricated like most automotive pumps.
>>
>> This makes our pumps more expensive and more reliable UNTIL the grease
>> in
>> the unserviceable bearings gets old. We don't put enough hours on our
>> pumps to wear them out so they get old from age as the grease in the
>> bearings hardens up.
>>
>> I replaced the pump with a Kubota pump which is identical to the
>> Universal
>> pump except for the price.
>>
>> If you are still running the original pump, be aware that it can fail
>> even
>> though it may appear to be perfect.
>>
>> The pumps are supposedly not seviceable but if I had had the time when
>> my
>> pump failed, I think I would have at least tried to press the old pump
>> apart to see if I could find bearings to rebuild it with. My boat is
>> several hundred miles from my home so I bought a new pump for expediency
>> instead of trying to repair the old pump. Even the Kubota pump is very
>> expen$ive but a quick fix.
>>
>>
>> Tom Troncalli
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > [Original Message]
>> > From: <david at dlrfilms.com>
>> > To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
>> > Date: 8/20/2009 11:30:56 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> >
>> > My engine appears to be a bit of a frankenstein's monster, and I'm not
>> > sure if I have the butterfly valve, but I will be looking for it this
>> > afternoon when I go though the below procedure! Also, for clarity, I
>> wan't
>> > talking about the raw water impeller, but the impeller on the
>> > recirculating pump. But having tried to open that up (it's glued shut
>> with
>> > all manner of sealant) and much more inclined to try the below
>> procedure
>> > first! I bet you've diagnosed the problem.
>> >
>> > Thanks so much!
>> >
>> > OTOH, we've come to regard our engine as completely unreliable which
>> has
>> > made us very handy under sail. You should have seen us in and out of
>> Block
>> > Island last week!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > David,
>> > >
>> > > It does sound like your not getting all of the air out of the
>> system.
>> > > What you see by looking in after taking the cap off is the coolant
>> which
>> > > should be a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water and is totally
>> separate
>> > > from the impeller. Fill up the system with 50/50 and start it up
>> let it
>> > > run and keep an eye on the level as the antifreeze begins to
>> circulate
>> > > the level will drop sometimes making a burp or slurping sound.
>> Keep an
>> > > eye on your temp. it will climb don't let it stay to long above 210,
>> > > shut down the engine let it cool for a bit and start all over. It
>> can
>> > > take several times doing this until the coolant is full. This
>> doesn't
>> > > mean that a bubble is not still in the system. Put the cap on and
>> start
>> > > up the engine, you should have a butterfly bleed valve forward and
>> > > starboard of the radiator cap crack this open after the engine has
>> been
>> > > running and it should vent lots of steam if there is a bubble
>> inside.
>> > > Close and wait then open this way you will get to a point that when
>> you
>> > > open it only antifreeze comes out, when this happens you have bled
>> the
>> > > engine of the air. With the water heater in a takes a lot longer
>> > > especially if you have removed the hoses and drained it. The last
>> time
>> > > I did this it took about 30-45 minutes. This was after having
>> removed
>> > > the water heater for another project.
>> > >
>> > > Steve
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> > > [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of
>> > > david at dlrfilms.com
>> > > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:13 AM
>> > > To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>> > > Subject: Re: [C38] Water Heater Plumbing
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> After years of chronic engine heating problems, I asked this C-38
>> > >> forum for suggestions.
>> > >
>> > > I guess it's my turn.
>> > >
>> > > We had now heating problems when we bought the boat, but last Summer
>> > > started to get overheat alarms.
>> > >
>> > > Simply cracking open the system to check this and that seemed to
>> clear
>> > > it, so I have (hopefully) deduced that it is an "air-lock" problem.
>> > >
>> > > But the overheats have gotten more frequent and are less reliably
>> > > cleared by cracking open the system.
>> > >
>> > > Our most recent fix it to take the hot water heater out of the loop,
>> > > which works, but I can still see the air-lock forming, but without
>> the
>> > > hot water heater in the system there seems to be enough circulation
>> > > pressure to push past it.
>> > >
>> > > Because if the deteriorating nature of the problem I am wondering if
>> the
>> > > freshwater impellor might be damaged, but when I start the engine
>> with
>> > > the cap off the coolant tank, I can see (what appears to be)
>> vigorous
>> > > flow.
>> > >
>> > > It also seems like maybe the cap, which is spring-loaded and leads
>> off
>> > > to the overflow tank might not be working right. When the air-lock
>> forms
>> > > it pushes the coolant back down the tube, but my intuition is that
>> this
>> > > should function more like an air-release valve. But I'm not an
>> engine
>> > > guy in any way, so not knowing what it's supposed to do, I don't
>> know
>> > > whether or not it's working right.
>> > >
>> > > I'm half hoping the whole thing will overheat and seize so I can put
>> in
>> > > an electric drive.
>> > >
>> > > Help?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Listserve mailing list
>> > > Listserve at catalina38.org
>> > > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>> > >
>> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date:
>> > > 08/19/09 18:06:00
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Listserve mailing list
>> > > Listserve at catalina38.org
>> > > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Listserve mailing list
>> > Listserve at catalina38.org
>> > http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>>
>> End of Listserve Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255
>> *****************************************
>>
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>
>
>
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