[C38] NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant

[Charles B. Finn]

Jonathan,
Sorry to hear of your predicament.  Problems like this are frustrating 
to nightmarish.... and always expensive!

There is no oil cooler in the 5424 to at least give you some help!   I 
suspect you are dealing with more than one issue here, but let's 
eliminate the obvious.  I think the symptom you need to focus on is the 
very high oil pressure it would require to pump all your oil out to the 
cooling system in so short a time.    First thing to do is to check oil 
pressure by taking out the oil pressure switch and installing an oil 
pressure gauge.  You might have a malfunctioning oil pump, because that 
is way to much oil flow in the time you state  (this could be a problem, 
but I really doubt this pump could do this).

I would also check the oil dipstick hole while running the engine.  I 
suspect you might find a lot of pressure at this location and there 
should be almost none to negative pressure.

You should also look to the seal you mention that circulates oil around 
the front of the engine (but I suspect that is way too much oil to be 
leaking around a seal).

Carefully examine your head gasket to see if you can see traces of fluid 
flow (you already have it off as you indicate it is going back to the 
shop).

If the head checks out, I think what  might explain is happening here is 
a crack in the port side of your #2 cylinder block and/or perhaps a 
piston ring issue.  The head gasket and a cracked/warped cylinder head 
are usually the problem, but if these have been eliminated.... I would 
take out the glow plug and pressure test the cylinder (leak down test).  
The reason I would focus on this location is the combination of blown 
injector and this problem manifesting after the head repair.

One final counsel might be on the problem of "sunk costs."  You already 
have a lot of time and money in this and it gets harder and harder to 
just let go.....   If time is your major concern, you might be better 
off going with another engine.  This can be difficult given your 
location and ten thousand dollars would keep me looking for a "fix," but 
without the luxury of time....

Let us know how this works out and all the best!
Chuck Finn
Mighty Quinn  #114
Great Lakes





On 6/1/2010 11:32 PM, Jonathan Whitney wrote:
> I'm having a serious issue that has been stumping several mechanics 
> that maybe people experienced with the Universal 5424/M30 would be 
> familiar with.
>
> Problem:
> Engine oil moving rapidly into freshwater coolant system.  When 
> running engine, within one minute, emulsified oil and water are 
> overflowing from top of header tank.  And within five minutes of 
> running entire 5 quarts of oil can be emptied into coolant system.  
> Small amounts of emulsified oil fall back into oil crankcase, however 
> the overwhelming majority of the flow is from the oil side to the 
> coolant side.
>
> Background:
> Engine is Universal 5424, original 1979, no hour meter so unsure of 
> hours.  Purchased boat 6 months ago.
> Was having problem starting after a water in fuel contamination 
> issue.  Middle injector had tip of nozzle blown off (tip physically 
> gone after inspection). Had all three injectors looked at and 
> rebuilt.  Once new injectors were in and entire fuel system 
> overhauled, still not starting.  After removing air intake manifold, 
> eventually got to start, but discovered it was only firing off 2 
> cylinders (middle cylinder where blown tip occured was not firing).  
> Feared an issue in the cylinder head - so removed the head and brought 
> to a head specialist to have tested.  Pressure tests showed that valve 
> seats in middle and aft cylinder were not sitting right.  Got a valve 
> job and entire cylinder head reworked.  Got head back, installed new 
> head gasket ordered from Torreson (matches old head gasket).  
> Installed new head gasket (in proper orientation) and re-conditioned 
> cylinder head.  Torqued to spec (56 lb/ft in order indicated in 
> service manual) reinstalled rocker assembly, air intake manifold, 
> exhaust manifold, etc.  Readjusted the valve timing to spec (.007 inch 
> on intake valves, and .009 inch on exhaust valves).  Installed valve 
> cover, new injectors, etc.
>
> Started engine, and it fired right up (that problem fixed), but within 
> a minute had emulsified oil/water flowing from top of header tank.  
> Initially thought could have been oil from removing cylinder head, so 
> flushed coolant system with little bit of soap and water till water 
> cleared.  Drained all oil, flushed oil system with gallon of diesel, 
> drained all diesel, replaced oil filter.  Filled with new oil to upper 
> level on dipstick (approximatly 4.5 quarts).  Started engine again, 
> and within one minute have more emulsified oil/water from coolant 
> system.  And tried to continue flushing with freshwater thinking that 
> this oil/water was not flushed out.  Ran five minutes, gray frothy 
> emulsified oil still not stopping.  Shut down.  Checked oil level 
> (dipstick showed no oil).  Tried to pump out oil and nothing in the 
> oil pan --> indicating nearly 5 quarts of oil was pumped into 
> freshwater coolant system in under five minutes.
>
> Initial potential diagnosis from my mechanic (whom has been involved 
> in all these major steps) and several other diesel specialists now 
> involved.
> (1) blown head gasket --> head gasket is still intact and in proper 
> orientation
> (2) cylinder head cracked --> although it was fresh from a trusted 
> specialist -- this is still a possibility and its going back to him to 
> be retested.  However, this is seeming unlikely as the speed to which 
> the oil goes into coolant, a crack in the head or the gasket not 
> sitting right wouldn't permit that amount of flow even under high oil 
> pressure.
> (3) first thing everyone says is "there must be a problem with the oil 
> cooler".  As far as I know, there is no oil cooler on this engine, and 
> there doesn't appear to be any external oil cooler added at some 
> point.  An oil cooler is not mentioned in the description of the oil 
> lubrication system in the service manual, or under any part list 
> published for this engine.  From what I can tell - it doesn't have 
> one.  However, I'd love for someone else who has this engine to tell 
> me 100% it doesn't. Or if there is one...where the hell is it?
> (4) oil seal in the raw water pump are leaking.  This could explain 
> why oil would be disappearing, but not how it gets into the freshwater 
> system, unless the raw water pump and the heat exchanger failed.  So I 
> replaced the seals on the raw water pump, just to be sure.  And 
> pressure tested the heat exchanger and there are no leaks.  Also, when 
> engine was running the raw water exhaust was clean and oil free.  So 
> this was temporarily eliminated as a suspect.
> (5) the o-ring on the pin plug might need to be replaced along with 
> the head gasket.  Speaking with a Universal specialist this morning, 
> and looking through the schematics.  There is one small pipe pin in 
> the FWD port side corner of the cylinder head that appears to be an 
> oil passage.  There is a small blue o-ring fitted around it.  He says 
> that might need to be replaced when you replace the head gasket.  
> There is an old o-ring there, but it is highly compressed.  I dont 
> know if this would make a space big enough for the flow described, but 
> I suppose its possible, and right now the only lead I have.  That pin 
> plug is located right next to a space for the coolant system and so 
> could be a potential weak point.
>
> I am trying to locate a detailed schematic of the oil lubrication 
> system, more detailed than the general diagram in my service manual.  
> So that we can find all the potential locations where pressurized oil 
> interfaces closely with the coolant system.  If anyone might have had 
> or heard of a similar issue with this engine, any information would 
> help us - as we are all sort of baffled.
>
> Because this issue started immediatly after removing/replacing the 
> head it appears most likely connected, however I cant get a good 
> explanation for how such fast transfer of oil into coolant could be 
> possible - and what the most likely culprit would be. Less likely, but 
> still a possibility, would be an independent problem occured in the 
> block, coincidentally at the same time as removing the head.
>
> This is turning into somewhat of a nightmare - and would be 
> extraordinarily grateful for any help from all you who have been 
> working on this engines for any insight.  Unfortunately, we were 
> supposed to be leaving 2 weeks ago for a month cruise around the 
> Hawaiian islands for my masters research.  So we're trying to get it 
> figured out asap to salvage whats left of the trip.  Any 
> ideas/comments/advice would be a godsend.
>
> Thanks in advance.  And would be happy to answer any and all 
> questions.  Feel free to call me too, if you have an idea 
> (215-485-2484).  I'm on Hawaii time, but you can call anytime 24/7 
> (really, wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm desperate for help).
>
> Best,
> Jon Whitney
> "Eyewhitness"
> 1979, Catalina 38 Hull #54
> Honolulu, Hawaii
>
>
> Jonathan Whitney
> Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology
> Zoology Dept., University of Hawaii at Manoa
> 2538 McCarthy Mall, Edmondson 152
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Phone: (215) 485-2484
> Email: jw2 at hawaii.edu
>
>
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