[C38] NEED HELP!! Diagnosing: Oil leaking into coolant

[Les]

On Jace we had had an oil leak for some time, originating in the area of
the front cover.  In our case this leak was near the top right side as
you faced the engine,  the effect was a continuous slow drip into the
bilge.  However it seems that this was somewhat common with the
Universal 5424.  We replaced the entire engine, because the rebuild was
nearly half as much as the new engine according to the estimates I got
here in California.  I had aggravated it by installing a higher amperage
alternator, and apparently the side load was too much for the front
plate which formed one of the mount points.

	I suspect that plate is also routing some of the cooling water, and
could be suspect.  However with oil going into the water nearly
directly, I would most likely suspect the head gasket.  Oil can go
through places that water cannot when it is warm, especially.  And the
place with the most potential for pressure into the oil passages and
water jacket is the head.

	As I think about the oil processes, the oil is not really in the high
pressure area, but next to it in some passages to the camshaft and other
mechanical points.  The oil pressure itself is about 30PSI when the
engine is running, where as the water pressure is typically 12 or so
PSI, so nearly anywhere the two passages are in close proximity a gasket
could let water and oil mix, and as long as the pressure was higher on
one side than the other, that is the direction it would go.

	In any case, once water makes it way into the oil, an engine rebuild is
in the future, as bearings will scour and seals will become a bit the
worse for the wear.  And what you describe is a serious amount of flow.
Since you replaced the head gasket and had the head rebuilt, I think
that is the most likely area.  A long time ago, some shops would use
acid to clean heads and to flush out scale from the water passages when
rebuilding the heads on car engines.  I don't know if that practice is
still happening, but it can cause a small opening between the water and
oil channels should the channels be rusty when it is done.  A check I
used to run on some head rebuilds on car engines was to pressurize the
water passages and see if there was air flow from any where it wasn't
supposed to be.  But on those heads there were typically only four
openings for water and it was relatively easy to do.  I don't know how
it is on the universal.

regards,
Les H
+
On Tue, 2010-06-01 at 23:32 -0400, Jonathan Whitney wrote:
> I'm having a serious issue that has been stumping several mechanics
> that maybe people experienced with the Universal 5424/M30 would be
> familiar with.  
> 
> Problem:
> Engine oil moving rapidly into freshwater coolant system.  When
> running engine, within one minute, emulsified oil and water are
> overflowing from top of header tank.  And within five minutes of
> running entire 5 quarts of oil can be emptied into coolant system.
> Small amounts of emulsified oil fall back into oil crankcase, however
> the overwhelming majority of the flow is from the oil side to the
> coolant side.  
> 
> Background:
> Engine is Universal 5424, original 1979, no hour meter so unsure of
> hours.  Purchased boat 6 months ago.
> Was having problem starting after a water in fuel contamination issue.
> Middle injector had tip of nozzle blown off (tip physically gone after
> inspection). Had all three injectors looked at and rebuilt.  Once new
> injectors were in and entire fuel system overhauled, still not
> starting.  After removing air intake manifold, eventually got to
> start, but discovered it was only firing off 2 cylinders (middle
> cylinder where blown tip occured was not firing).  Feared an issue in
> the cylinder head - so removed the head and brought to a head
> specialist to have tested.  Pressure tests showed that valve seats in
> middle and aft cylinder were not sitting right.  Got a valve job and
> entire cylinder head reworked.  Got head back, installed new head
> gasket ordered from Torreson (matches old head gasket).  Installed new
> head gasket (in proper orientation) and re-conditioned cylinder head.
> Torqued to spec (56 lb/ft in order indicated in service manual)
> reinstalled rocker assembly, air intake manifold, exhaust manifold,
> etc.  Readjusted the valve timing to spec (.007 inch on intake valves,
> and .009 inch on exhaust valves).  Installed valve cover, new
> injectors, etc.  
> 
> Started engine, and it fired right up (that problem fixed), but within
> a minute had emulsified oil/water flowing from top of header tank.
> Initially thought could have been oil from removing cylinder head, so
> flushed coolant system with little bit of soap and water till water
> cleared.  Drained all oil, flushed oil system with gallon of diesel,
> drained all diesel, replaced oil filter.  Filled with new oil to upper
> level on dipstick (approximatly 4.5 quarts).  Started engine again,
> and within one minute have more emulsified oil/water from coolant
> system.  And tried to continue flushing with freshwater thinking that
> this oil/water was not flushed out.  Ran five minutes, gray frothy
> emulsified oil still not stopping.  Shut down.  Checked oil level
> (dipstick showed no oil).  Tried to pump out oil and nothing in the
> oil pan --> indicating nearly 5 quarts of oil was pumped into
> freshwater coolant system in under five minutes.  
> 
> Initial potential diagnosis from my mechanic (whom has been involved
> in all these major steps) and several other diesel specialists now
> involved.
> (1) blown head gasket --> head gasket is still intact and in proper
> orientation
> (2) cylinder head cracked --> although it was fresh from a trusted
> specialist -- this is still a possibility and its going back to him to
> be retested.  However, this is seeming unlikely as the speed to which
> the oil goes into coolant, a crack in the head or the gasket not
> sitting right wouldn't permit that amount of flow even under high oil
> pressure.  
> (3) first thing everyone says is "there must be a problem with the oil
> cooler".  As far as I know, there is no oil cooler on this engine, and
> there doesn't appear to be any external oil cooler added at some
> point.  An oil cooler is not mentioned in the description of the oil
> lubrication system in the service manual, or under any part list
> published for this engine.  From what I can tell - it doesn't have
> one.  However, I'd love for someone else who has this engine to tell
> me 100% it doesn't. Or if there is one...where the hell is it?
> (4) oil seal in the raw water pump are leaking.  This could explain
> why oil would be disappearing, but not how it gets into the freshwater
> system, unless the raw water pump and the heat exchanger failed.  So I
> replaced the seals on the raw water pump, just to be sure.  And
> pressure tested the heat exchanger and there are no leaks.  Also, when
> engine was running the raw water exhaust was clean and oil free.  So
> this was temporarily eliminated as a suspect.
> (5) the o-ring on the pin plug might need to be replaced along with
> the head gasket.  Speaking with a Universal specialist this morning,
> and looking through the schematics.  There is one small pipe pin in
> the FWD port side corner of the cylinder head that appears to be an
> oil passage.  There is a small blue o-ring fitted around it.  He says
> that might need to be replaced when you replace the head gasket.
> There is an old o-ring there, but it is highly compressed.  I dont
> know if this would make a space big enough for the flow described, but
> I suppose its possible, and right now the only lead I have.  That pin
> plug is located right next to a space for the coolant system and so
> could be a potential weak point.
> 
> I am trying to locate a detailed schematic of the oil lubrication
> system, more detailed than the general diagram in my service manual.
> So that we can find all the potential locations where pressurized oil
> interfaces closely with the coolant system.  If anyone might have had
> or heard of a similar issue with this engine, any information would
> help us - as we are all sort of baffled.  
> 
> Because this issue started immediatly after removing/replacing the
> head it appears most likely connected, however I cant get a good
> explanation for how such fast transfer of oil into coolant could be
> possible - and what the most likely culprit would be. Less likely, but
> still a possibility, would be an independent problem occured in the
> block, coincidentally at the same time as removing the head.  
> 
> This is turning into somewhat of a nightmare - and would be
> extraordinarily grateful for any help from all you who have been
> working on this engines for any insight.  Unfortunately, we were
> supposed to be leaving 2 weeks ago for a month cruise around the
> Hawaiian islands for my masters research.  So we're trying to get it
> figured out asap to salvage whats left of the trip.  Any
> ideas/comments/advice would be a godsend.
> 
> Thanks in advance.  And would be happy to answer any and all
> questions.  Feel free to call me too, if you have an idea
> (215-485-2484).  I'm on Hawaii time, but you can call anytime 24/7
> (really, wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm desperate for
> help).
> 
> Best,
> Jon Whitney
> "Eyewhitness"
> 1979, Catalina 38 Hull #54
> Honolulu, Hawaii
> 
> 
> 
> Jonathan Whitney
> Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology
> Zoology Dept., University of Hawaii at Manoa
> 2538 McCarthy Mall, Edmondson 152
> Honolulu, HI 96822
> Phone: (215) 485-2484
> Email: jw2 at hawaii.edu
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