[C38] Stanchions
Anders Finn
anders at finn.ws
Mon Jan 31 20:15:05 EST 2011
Ask and you shall recieve
http://tacomarine.com/item--1-9-16-x-1-1-2-Aluminum-Sailboat-Toe-Rail--A62-0009.html
According to the tech's at Taco Marine, this is our toe rail spec.
Anders
On 01/30/2011 12:56 AM, Steve Smolinske wrote:
> I have worm holes on the aft section of the stbd rail far away from
> the gates. Good luck fishing that line I did that once took me most
> of a morning
>
> Steve Smolinske
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 29, 2011, at 7:55 PM, "Patrick Harpole" <1derful at comcast.net
> <mailto:1derful at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>> *Speaking of stanchions and "worm holes" I got the pleasure of
>> worming a wire through pulpit (aka stanchion) because the bow
>> navigation light wiring failed.*
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Catalina 38 Listserve <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:31 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>
>> The weirdest thing is that the worm holes on the rails are not
>> located near a single fastener. Thy are located on the sides of
>> the rails... Most of them on a single side.....
>> Max
>>
>> Sent from my iPod
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 6:09 PM, S Orton <ssorton at hotmail.com
>> <mailto:ssorton at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> I should of continued with the "worm hole" discussion, adding I
>>> don't consider it a structural problem unless a hole develops
>>> at several adjacent fasteners thereby destroying the clamping
>>> force between the hull and deck. If it is a hole here and
>>> there, fill it with 5200 and forget it.
>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:26:43 -0500
>>> From: steve.ribble at gmail.com <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>> Don't know who made the toerail, but the same cross section is
>>> used by several different boat builders of the era so it must be
>>> an established extruder...I had the same thing on a 1980 Mirage.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws
>>> <mailto:charles at finn.ws>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>> I called Garhauer yesterday about stanchions and the
>>> toerail. Mike told me they never made the toerail as that
>>> is not something they are set up for. He was interested in
>>> my idea of a toerail stanchion, but would make no comment
>>> until he had seen what our toerail looks like. He offered
>>> to work with me on this after I got him some specs/pictures
>>> of our rail. Does anyone have a cross-sectional view and/or
>>> measurements?
>>>
>>> If I were to guess, I would say our toerails were made of T6
>>> aluminum as it extrudes and anodizes well and is one of the
>>> hardest and strongest types. I have cut this stuff on a
>>> lathe and it does not remotely behave like ordinary
>>> aluminum! You need ear protection. I agree with Steve O.
>>> that low bidder could be our problem here, which of course
>>> would vary by batches and years. All aluminum I am aware of
>>> can contain some small levels of iron, but I recall Grumman
>>> successfully figured out how to reduce this back when they
>>> were the aircraft frame folks. By the way, don't try to
>>> weld on this stuff as it requires TIG and a lot of
>>> practice! One more thing, aluminum can corrode when
>>> exposed. The neat thing about this stuff is it almost
>>> immediately begins to form an impermeable skin as part of
>>> the corrosion process that essentially stops further
>>> corrosion and it is able to do this across a wide PH range.
>>> Now you know pretty much all I know about this stuff!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Chuck Finn
>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>> Great Lakes
>>>
>>> On 1/29/2011 12:19 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>>
>>> Phil, I don't think a backing plate is worth the
>>> effort- the underside clearance/access is very tough.
>>> Use oversize washers if possible. If the holes are
>>> rotted out, fill with epoxie and redrill. My toe rail
>>> also has worm holes, near the gates. I assumed the
>>> reason was low bidder on the extrusions with much more
>>> impurities included. The aircraft specs would preclude
>>> what we a seeing. Has anybody contacted Garhauer about
>>> this problem? I can understand corrosion at the SS
>>> fasteners, but these worm holes appear unrelated.
>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:09:44 -0500
>>> From: steve.ribble at gmail.com <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>> Great thought about the backing plate, Phil. I've
>>> always considered stanchions and lifelines to be
>>> expendable in the event of emergencies...that they were
>>> basically to break your fall, not necessarily there to
>>> support the weight of the world. That said, obviously
>>> I/we don't want to replace these things every month or
>>> two so they need to be stout enough. It seems like one
>>> of the first things to go, when looking at the entire
>>> stanchion "system" is the through-bolt hole (as Phil
>>> indicated) and that a backing plate would disperse the
>>> loads/forces among the 4 bolts/holes rather than the two
>>> that experience expansion when torque is applied the the
>>> stanchion. Long story short, assuming we're all not
>>> going to run out and replace our stanchions for another
>>> design, that Garhauer already has the the backing plate
>>> (the base prior to welding to the stanchion tube) so it
>>> should be an easy and relatively inexpensive process to
>>> upgrade the holding power of our existing equipment.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Phil Gay
>>> <eyriepg at comcast.net <mailto:eyriepg at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I thought I would explain what I think I know about
>>> metals from my aircraft engineering background. I
>>> agree that the toe rail on our C38s is an aluminum
>>> alloy. Pure aluminum does create its own oxide
>>> coating which retards corrosion. But, when it is
>>> alloyed to increase its hardness and strength, it
>>> loses the ability to protect itself unless it has a
>>> pure aluminum cladding on the surface. Typically
>>> these alloys have an anodic coating (the dark
>>> surface on our toe rails) or a chemical conversion
>>> coating which created this protective oxide on the
>>> exterior surface.
>>>
>>> Near the bow of my C38 the toe rail has started to
>>> pit. I don’t think it has progressed much lately
>>> with all the rain water that we get here in the NW.
>>> I doubt that it has weakened the extrusion much at
>>> all. I agree with the statements about the loads on
>>> the stanchions. Later model Catalinas have the
>>> stanchions that fit into sockets molded into the toe
>>> rail as well as being bolted through base plates to
>>> the deck. BTW I am pretty sure that the deck area
>>> where the toe rails are attached on our C38s is
>>> solid un-cored fiberglass. A lot of the looseness
>>> of the bases is caused by the rocking of the bolts,
>>> and subsequent elongation of the holes, because they
>>> don’t have backing plates to hold them vertical. I
>>> think that there are ways to securely attach our
>>> stanchions to the toe rail if they are also bolted
>>> inboard to the deck. I have also thought about
>>> having the existing stanchions modified so that they
>>> angle outboard to allow more room to pass around the
>>> shrouds.
>>>
>>> Phil Gay
>>> C38 049 Que Linda
>>> Everett WA
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:*listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>> <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>
>>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>> <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Anders Finn
>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 4:25 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Really? I thought that toe rail was aluminum. Should
>>> be pretty resistant to salt corrosion. I think what
>>> my old man is trying to say is that the toe rail is
>>> at least as strong, if not stronger than the plywood
>>> under the deck to which the stanchions are currently
>>> screwed into. It would be interesting to know the
>>> dimensions of the toe rail if anyone has them (I
>>> think my dad is going up to measure in a few weeks)
>>> and I can figure out what kind of moment could be
>>> applied safely to the toe rail if one could find a
>>> way to apply the load evenly.
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> On 01/28/2011 04:06 PM, Don Strong wrote:
>>> The toe rail really is not that tough. As well, in
>>> salty boats as old as mine (1980), the toe rail has
>>> some indication of chemical decomposition along the
>>> bottom side. I treat my toe rail with care. Like the
>>> rest of this wonderful 30 year old device, I hope it
>>> lasts longer than I last.
>>> Don
>>>
>>> On 1/28/11 2:15 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>> Think about pivot point. If there is indeed only two
>>> bolts, the only thing keeping it from pivoting is
>>> compression between the plate and the toe rail. The
>>> bolts are there simply to provide a leverage point.
>>> That's what concerns me.
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> On 01/28/2011 02:13 PM, Chuck Finn wrote:
>>> This type of fitting is used by: C&C, Hunter, PDQ,
>>> Bayfield, and Freedom yachts. I think the footprint
>>> is the entire toerail, which is significantly
>>> stronger than our pad fastened to a plywood
>>> deck.... If I was to worry about strength, it
>>> would be the shear force exerted on the bolts if the
>>> toerail stanchion base is not a good fit with our
>>> toerail... I would weld the stanchion to the base
>>> rather than rely on the throughbolt. I can also
>>> comment on the strength of at least the C&C toerail
>>> as I have raced these boats and that means bounced a
>>> time or two off the lines and stanchions! Have
>>> crewed Hunters as well, but don't remember the
>>> stanchion design.
>>>
>>> I think my next step will be to contact Garhauer as
>>> they are reputed to have first made our toerail. I
>>> also could easily fabricate my own bases that would
>>> incorporate Ander's ideas.
>>>
>>> But, will it look pretty?
>>>
>>> Chuck Finn
>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>> Great Lakes
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/28/2011 4:16 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>> Yeah, I just got a chance to look at this. I think
>>> Steve is right here about a large drop in torsional
>>> resistance. However, that being said, those
>>> stanchions forward of the cockpit are not really
>>> THAT strong. I would like to see at least a three
>>> bolt design with a larger outer plate to provide
>>> some surface to disperse the torque to the hull.
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>> PS. They say they're used on Freedom 32's however,
>>> from pictures, I can't see anything resembling a toe
>>> rail that would support load on them.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/28/2011 12:42 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>> Chuck, If I understand the concept correctly, it is
>>> a very poor structural design. There is no foot
>>> print to react the outward cantilever force on the
>>> stantion- you need a four bolt pattern to react this
>>> force in all directions and I only saw two fasteners
>>> parallel to the toe rail.
>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:27:31 -0500
>>> From: charles at finn.ws <mailto:charles at finn.ws>
>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>> Max,
>>> Here is the rigrite url:
>>> http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail
>>> <http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail>
>>>
>>> As you can see, this would put the stanchion on the
>>> outside edge of our toerail and would eliminate the
>>> base. This would result in a lot of room on the
>>> deck. I am thinking of using two of the bases for
>>> the gate and then moving forward. My issue about
>>> this would look is that I will have to connect to
>>> the stern rails and bow pulpit, which would remain
>>> as they are.
>>> I would also have to fill all the holes in the deck
>>> from where the plates were and re-route the holding
>>> tank vent, but that would be worth it for the extra
>>> room on deck and the elimination of possible leaks.
>>>
>>> What to our C38 folks think?
>>>
>>> Chuck Finn
>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>> Great Lakes
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/27/2011 11:21 AM, Max Soto wrote:
>>> Chuck, Did you send a link for the rigrite stanchions?
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Max
>>>
>>> 2011/1/26 Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws
>>> <mailto:charles at finn.ws>>
>>> One way I know it is sailing season is the scrape on
>>> my shin obtained as I climb from the cabin to the
>>> cockpit. The other wound is the bruises on the side
>>> of both legs as I bang into the stanchions. I love
>>> the look of our boats, but the design idea that the
>>> stanchions should follow the inward bend of the
>>> tumblehome really does not work for me. There just
>>> is not enough deck for a guy my size. I am still
>>> considering bending and re-welding the current
>>> stanchions into a vertical position, but perhaps
>>> even a better solution would be to remove the
>>> current stanchions altogether and going with a toe
>>> rail stanchion like you see on C&C yachts.
>>> Rigrite.com <http://Rigrite.com> has these.
>>> Attaching stanchions directly to our toerail seems
>>> to be a viable option as the rail is really heavy
>>> duty. Additionally, you can buy the bases and use
>>> the current tubing assuming it is not the light
>>> weight stuff Tom has commented on. This would give
>>> us a lot more deck space for size 11 feet.
>>> Just thinking aloud at this point, but I really am
>>> tired of the bruising!
>>>
>>> Chuck Finn
>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>> Great Lakes
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/25/2011 3:25 PM, Max Soto wrote:
>>> Good to know that they share the same foot print...
>>> If the removable stanchion's base also fits, I'll go
>>> for that one next time..... A little heavier, but if
>>> they bend, it will be so much easier to replace.......
>>> Thanks, Max
>>>
>>> 2011/1/25 Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>>
>>> Max, yes...same foot print. Garhauer has a
>>> square-ish base that I think are for removable
>>> stanchions and a one that's trapezoidal for the
>>> solid/fixed type, which is what mine are (also
>>> characterized by the "flat top"). I can't speak to
>>> the quality comment that Tom refers to, I just know
>>> mine have been on the boat for 30 years and only
>>> needed to be replaced because the over-wintering
>>> force exerted by the shrinkwrap caused them to bend.
>>> I thought I saw reinforced/gate style stanchions on
>>> their website, but don't know about the footprint.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tom T.
>>> <tdtron at earthlink.net <mailto:tdtron at earthlink.net>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> After hurricane Dennis (the Menace) skirted Tampa
>>> Bay a few years ago with a near miss, we got tangled
>>> up with a piling with the surge and had our
>>> starboard lifelines damaged along with the
>>> stanchions on that side.
>>>
>>> I replaced the stanchions near the rail at the aft
>>> end of the cabin with Catalina Direct stanchions. I
>>> replaced both sides so they would match. My boat
>>> had standard stanchions and those stanchions should
>>> have been the reinforced gate entry types which are
>>> heavier and more expensive.
>>>
>>> I didn't shop Garhauer and I probably should have
>>> but the original stanchions were JUNK so anything
>>> was an upgrade! The metal in the replacement
>>> stanchions was much heavier gage and with the
>>> reinforced foot design of the gate type stanchion
>>> there was no comparison between quality or strength
>>> of the two types.
>>>
>>> The reason I bring this up is some of our members
>>> may have stanchions like the ones I replaced which
>>> may be a disaster waiting to happen. If the
>>> stanchions at the front of the gate are like the
>>> thin, weak ones like I had they could fail. The
>>> thin tube original stanchions may be OK for middle
>>> of the lifeline mounts but where the gates terminate
>>> they are inadequate
>>>
>>> Tom Troncalli
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:*Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>> *To: *Catalina 38 Listserve
>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> *Sent:*1/25/2011 12:00:20 PM
>>> *Subject:*Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>> Steve, do they have the same footprint???
>>> Regards, max
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 25, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Steven Ribble
>>> <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Our stanchions are Garhauer...I replaced a
>>> couple last season...about $50 each.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Max Soto
>>> <maxsoto at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Hey Steve,
>>>
>>> I'm not surprised if they were made by
>>> Garhauer......
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Max
>>>
>>> 2011/1/24 Steve Smolinske
>>> <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com
>>> <mailto:SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>>
>>> Does anyone know who made our stanchions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Smolinske
>>> President
>>>
>>> 425-227-4500
>>> www.RainierRubber.com
>>> <http://www.RainierRubber.com>
>>>
>>> The information contained in this email may
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>>> email only. Please treat all information
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Max Soto
>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Steve Ribble
>>> 207/852-0971
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Steve Ribble
>>> 207/852-0971
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Max Soto
>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Max Soto
>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Steve Ribble
>>> 207/852-0971
>>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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