[C38] Stanchions

Chuck Finn charles at finn.ws
Mon Jan 31 23:17:44 EST 2011


T5 is a lower cost material than T6.  Not as hard or strong, but still 
some of the strongest aluminum made.  It is a bit more ductile.
So, is it strong enough to support those torsional forces?
Inquiring minds want to know!

And Thanks!
Chuck Finn
Mighty Quinn #114
Great Lakes

On 1/31/2011 8:15 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
> Ask and you shall recieve
>
> http://tacomarine.com/item--1-9-16-x-1-1-2-Aluminum-Sailboat-Toe-Rail--A62-0009.html
>
> According to the tech's at Taco Marine, this is our toe rail spec.
>
> Anders
>
> On 01/30/2011 12:56 AM, Steve Smolinske wrote:
>> I have worm holes on the aft section of the stbd rail far away from 
>> the gates.  Good luck fishing that line I did that once took me most 
>> of a morning
>>
>> Steve Smolinske
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 7:55 PM, "Patrick Harpole" <1derful at comcast.net 
>> <mailto:1derful at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Speaking of stanchions and "worm holes" I got the pleasure of 
>>> worming a wire through pulpit (aka stanchion) because the bow 
>>> navigation light wiring failed.*
>>>
>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>     *From:* Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>>     *To:* Catalina 38 Listserve <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>     *Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:31 PM
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>>     The weirdest thing is that the worm holes on the rails are not
>>>     located  near a single fastener. Thy are located on the sides of
>>>     the rails... Most of them on a single side.....
>>>     Max
>>>
>>>     Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>>     On Jan 29, 2011, at 6:09 PM, S Orton <ssorton at hotmail.com
>>>     <mailto:ssorton at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>     I should of continued with the "worm hole" discussion, adding I
>>>>     don't consider it a structural problem unless a hole develops
>>>>     at several adjacent fasteners thereby destroying the clamping
>>>>     force between the hull and deck.  If it is a hole here and
>>>>     there, fill it with 5200 and forget it.
>>>>     Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>     Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:26:43 -0500
>>>>     From: steve.ribble at gmail.com <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>>>     To: listserve at catalina38.org <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>     Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>     Don't know who made the toerail, but the same cross section is
>>>>     used by several different boat builders of the era so it must
>>>>     be an established extruder...I had the same thing on a 1980
>>>>     Mirage.
>>>>
>>>>     On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws
>>>>     <mailto:charles at finn.ws>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Steve,
>>>>         I called Garhauer yesterday about stanchions and the
>>>>         toerail.  Mike told me they never made the toerail as that
>>>>         is not something they are set up for.  He was interested in
>>>>         my idea of a toerail stanchion, but would make no comment
>>>>         until he had seen what our toerail looks like.  He offered
>>>>         to work with me on this after I got him some specs/pictures
>>>>         of our rail.  Does anyone have a cross-sectional view
>>>>         and/or measurements?
>>>>
>>>>         If I were to guess, I would say our toerails were made of
>>>>         T6 aluminum as it extrudes and anodizes well and is one of
>>>>         the hardest and strongest types.  I have cut this stuff on
>>>>         a lathe and it does not remotely behave like ordinary
>>>>         aluminum!  You need ear protection.   I agree with Steve O.
>>>>         that low bidder could be our problem here, which of course
>>>>         would vary by batches and years.  All aluminum I am aware
>>>>         of can contain some small levels of iron, but I recall
>>>>         Grumman successfully figured out how to reduce this back
>>>>         when they were the aircraft frame folks.  By the way, don't
>>>>         try to weld on this stuff as it requires TIG and a lot of
>>>>         practice!  One more thing, aluminum can corrode when
>>>>         exposed.  The neat thing about this stuff is it almost
>>>>         immediately begins to form an impermeable skin as part of
>>>>         the corrosion process that essentially stops further
>>>>         corrosion and it is able to do this across a wide PH
>>>>         range.  Now you know pretty much all I know about this stuff!
>>>>
>>>>         Regards,
>>>>
>>>>         Chuck Finn
>>>>         Mighty Quinn #114
>>>>         Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>         On 1/29/2011 12:19 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             Phil,  I don't think a backing plate is worth the
>>>>             effort- the underside clearance/access is very tough. 
>>>>             Use oversize washers if possible.  If the holes are
>>>>             rotted out, fill with epoxie and redrill.  My toe rail
>>>>             also has worm holes, near the gates.  I assumed the
>>>>             reason was low bidder on the extrusions with much more
>>>>             impurities included.  The aircraft specs would preclude
>>>>             what we a seeing.  Has anybody contacted Garhauer about
>>>>             this problem?  I can understand corrosion at the SS
>>>>             fasteners, but these worm holes appear unrelated.
>>>>             Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>             Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:09:44 -0500
>>>>             From: steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>>             <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>>>             To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>>>             <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>             Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>             Great thought about the backing plate, Phil.  I've
>>>>             always considered stanchions and lifelines to be
>>>>             expendable in the event of emergencies...that they were
>>>>             basically to break your fall, not necessarily there to
>>>>             support the weight of the world.  That said, obviously
>>>>             I/we don't want to replace these things every month or
>>>>             two so they need to be stout enough.  It seems like one
>>>>             of the first things to go, when looking at the entire
>>>>             stanchion "system" is the through-bolt hole (as Phil
>>>>             indicated) and that a backing plate would disperse the
>>>>             loads/forces among the 4 bolts/holes rather than the
>>>>             two that experience expansion when torque is applied
>>>>             the the stanchion. Long story short, assuming we're all
>>>>             not going to run out and replace our stanchions for
>>>>             another design, that Garhauer already has the the
>>>>             backing plate (the base prior to welding to the
>>>>             stanchion tube) so it should be an easy and relatively
>>>>             inexpensive process to upgrade the holding power of our
>>>>             existing equipment.
>>>>
>>>>             On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Phil Gay
>>>>             <eyriepg at comcast.net <mailto:eyriepg at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 I thought I would explain what I think I know about
>>>>                 metals from my aircraft engineering background.  I
>>>>                 agree that the toe rail on our C38s is an aluminum
>>>>                 alloy.  Pure aluminum does create its own oxide
>>>>                 coating which retards corrosion.  But, when it is
>>>>                 alloyed to increase its hardness and strength, it
>>>>                 loses the ability to protect itself unless it has a
>>>>                 pure aluminum cladding on the surface.  Typically
>>>>                 these alloys have an anodic coating (the dark
>>>>                 surface on our toe rails) or a chemical conversion
>>>>                 coating which created this protective oxide on the
>>>>                 exterior surface.
>>>>
>>>>                 Near the bow of my C38 the toe rail has started to
>>>>                 pit.  I don’t think it has progressed much lately
>>>>                 with all the rain water that we get here in the
>>>>                 NW.  I doubt that it has weakened the extrusion
>>>>                 much at all.  I agree with the statements about the
>>>>                 loads on the stanchions.  Later model Catalinas
>>>>                 have the stanchions that fit into sockets molded
>>>>                 into the toe rail as well as being bolted through
>>>>                 base plates to the deck.  BTW I am pretty sure that
>>>>                 the deck area where the toe rails are attached on
>>>>                 our C38s is solid un-cored fiberglass.  A lot of
>>>>                 the looseness of the bases is caused by the rocking
>>>>                 of the bolts, and subsequent elongation of the
>>>>                 holes, because they don’t have backing plates to
>>>>                 hold them vertical.  I think that there are ways to
>>>>                 securely attach our stanchions to the toe rail if
>>>>                 they are also bolted inboard to the deck.  I have
>>>>                 also thought about having the existing stanchions
>>>>                 modified so that they angle outboard to allow more
>>>>                 room to pass around the shrouds.
>>>>
>>>>                 Phil Gay
>>>>                 C38 049 Que Linda
>>>>                 Everett WA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 *From:*listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>>                 <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>
>>>>                 [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>>                 <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>] *On
>>>>                 Behalf Of *Anders Finn
>>>>                 *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 4:25 PM
>>>>
>>>>                 *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
>>>>                 <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>                 *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 Really? I thought that toe rail was aluminum.
>>>>                 Should be pretty resistant to salt corrosion. I
>>>>                 think what my old man is trying to say is that the
>>>>                 toe rail is at least as strong, if not stronger
>>>>                 than the plywood under the deck to which the
>>>>                 stanchions are currently screwed into. It would be
>>>>                 interesting to know the dimensions of the toe rail
>>>>                 if anyone has them (I think my dad is going up to
>>>>                 measure in a few weeks) and I can figure out what
>>>>                 kind of moment could be applied safely to the toe
>>>>                 rail if one could find a way to apply the load evenly.
>>>>
>>>>                 Anders
>>>>
>>>>                 On 01/28/2011 04:06 PM, Don Strong wrote:
>>>>                 The toe rail really is not that tough.  As well, in
>>>>                 salty boats as old as mine (1980), the toe rail has
>>>>                 some indication of chemical decomposition along the
>>>>                 bottom side. I treat my toe rail with care. Like
>>>>                 the rest of this wonderful 30 year old device, I
>>>>                 hope it lasts longer than I last.
>>>>                 Don
>>>>
>>>>                 On 1/28/11 2:15 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>>>                 Think about pivot point. If there is indeed only
>>>>                 two bolts, the only thing keeping it from pivoting
>>>>                 is compression between the plate and the toe rail.
>>>>                 The bolts are there simply to provide a leverage
>>>>                 point. That's what concerns me.
>>>>
>>>>                 Anders
>>>>
>>>>                 On 01/28/2011 02:13 PM, Chuck Finn wrote:
>>>>                 This type of fitting is used by:  C&C, Hunter, PDQ,
>>>>                 Bayfield, and Freedom yachts.  I think the
>>>>                 footprint is the entire toerail, which is
>>>>                 significantly stronger than our pad fastened to a
>>>>                 plywood deck....   If I was to worry about
>>>>                 strength, it would be the shear force exerted on
>>>>                 the bolts if the toerail stanchion base is not a
>>>>                 good fit with our toerail...  I would weld the
>>>>                 stanchion to the base rather than rely on the
>>>>                 throughbolt.  I can also comment on the strength of
>>>>                 at least the C&C toerail as I have raced these
>>>>                 boats and that means bounced a time or two off the
>>>>                 lines and stanchions!  Have crewed Hunters as well,
>>>>                 but don't remember the stanchion design.
>>>>
>>>>                 I think my next step will be to contact Garhauer as
>>>>                 they are reputed to have first made our toerail.  I
>>>>                 also could easily fabricate my own bases that would
>>>>                 incorporate Ander's ideas.
>>>>
>>>>                 But, will it look pretty?
>>>>
>>>>                 Chuck Finn
>>>>                 Mighty Quinn #114
>>>>                 Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On 1/28/2011 4:16 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>>>                 Yeah, I just got a chance to look at this. I think
>>>>                 Steve is right here about a large drop in torsional
>>>>                 resistance. However, that being said, those
>>>>                 stanchions forward of the cockpit are not really
>>>>                 THAT strong. I would like to see at least a three
>>>>                 bolt design with a larger outer plate to provide
>>>>                 some surface to disperse the torque to the hull.
>>>>
>>>>                 Anders
>>>>
>>>>                 PS. They say they're used on Freedom 32's however,
>>>>                 from pictures, I can't see anything resembling a
>>>>                 toe rail that would support load on them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On 01/28/2011 12:42 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>>>                 Chuck,  If I understand the concept correctly, it
>>>>                 is a very poor structural design.  There is no foot
>>>>                 print to react the outward cantilever force on the
>>>>                 stantion- you need a four bolt pattern to react
>>>>                 this force in all directions and I only saw two
>>>>                 fasteners parallel to the toe rail.
>>>>                 Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>>                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>                 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:27:31 -0500
>>>>                 From: charles at finn.ws <mailto:charles at finn.ws>
>>>>                 To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>>>                 <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>                 Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>                 Max,
>>>>                 Here is the rigrite url:
>>>>                 http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail
>>>>                 <http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail>
>>>>
>>>>                 As you can see, this would put the stanchion on the
>>>>                 outside edge of our toerail and would eliminate the
>>>>                 base.  This would result in a lot of room on the
>>>>                 deck.  I am thinking of using two of the bases for
>>>>                 the gate and then moving forward.  My issue about
>>>>                 this would look is that I will have to connect to
>>>>                 the stern rails and bow pulpit, which would remain
>>>>                 as they are.
>>>>                 I would also have to fill all the holes in the deck
>>>>                 from where the plates were and re-route the holding
>>>>                 tank vent, but that would be worth it for the extra
>>>>                 room on deck and the elimination of possible leaks.
>>>>
>>>>                 What to our C38 folks think?
>>>>
>>>>                 Chuck Finn
>>>>                 Mighty Quinn #114
>>>>                 Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On 1/27/2011 11:21 AM, Max Soto wrote:
>>>>                 Chuck, Did you send a link for the rigrite stanchions?
>>>>                  Regards,
>>>>
>>>>                 Max
>>>>
>>>>                 2011/1/26 Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws
>>>>                 <mailto:charles at finn.ws>>
>>>>                 One way I know it is sailing season is the scrape
>>>>                 on my shin obtained as I climb from the cabin to
>>>>                 the cockpit.  The other wound is the bruises on the
>>>>                 side of both legs as I bang into the stanchions.  I
>>>>                 love the look of our boats, but the design idea
>>>>                 that the stanchions should follow the inward bend
>>>>                 of the tumblehome really does not work for me. 
>>>>                 There just is not enough deck for a guy my size.  I
>>>>                 am still considering bending and re-welding the
>>>>                 current stanchions into a vertical position, but
>>>>                 perhaps even a better solution would be to remove
>>>>                 the current stanchions altogether and going with a
>>>>                 toe rail stanchion like you see on C&C yachts.
>>>>                 Rigrite.com <http://Rigrite.com> has these.  
>>>>                 Attaching stanchions directly to our toerail seems
>>>>                 to be a viable option as the rail is really heavy
>>>>                 duty.  Additionally, you can buy the bases and use
>>>>                 the current tubing assuming it is not the light
>>>>                 weight stuff Tom has commented on.   This would
>>>>                 give us a lot more deck space for size 11 feet.
>>>>                 Just thinking aloud at this point, but I really am
>>>>                 tired of the bruising!
>>>>
>>>>                 Chuck Finn
>>>>                 Mighty Quinn #114
>>>>                 Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On 1/25/2011 3:25 PM, Max Soto wrote:
>>>>                 Good to know that they share the same foot print...
>>>>                 If the removable stanchion's base also fits, I'll
>>>>                 go for that one next time..... A little heavier,
>>>>                 but if they bend, it will be so much easier to
>>>>                 replace.......
>>>>                 Thanks, Max
>>>>
>>>>                 2011/1/25 Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>>                 <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>>
>>>>                 Max, yes...same foot print.  Garhauer has a
>>>>                 square-ish base that I think are for removable
>>>>                 stanchions and a one that's trapezoidal for the
>>>>                 solid/fixed type, which is what mine are (also
>>>>                 characterized by the "flat top").  I can't speak to
>>>>                 the quality comment that Tom refers to, I just know
>>>>                 mine have been on the boat for 30 years and only
>>>>                 needed to be replaced because the over-wintering
>>>>                 force exerted by the shrinkwrap caused them to
>>>>                 bend.  I thought I saw reinforced/gate style
>>>>                 stanchions on their website, but don't know about
>>>>                 the footprint.
>>>>
>>>>                 On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tom T.
>>>>                 <tdtron at earthlink.net
>>>>                 <mailto:tdtron at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 After hurricane Dennis (the Menace) skirted Tampa
>>>>                 Bay a few years ago with a near miss, we got
>>>>                 tangled up with a piling with the surge and had our
>>>>                 starboard lifelines damaged along with the
>>>>                 stanchions on that side.
>>>>
>>>>                 I replaced the stanchions near the rail at the aft
>>>>                 end of the cabin with Catalina Direct stanchions. I
>>>>                 replaced both sides so they would match.  My boat
>>>>                 had standard stanchions and those stanchions should
>>>>                 have been the reinforced gate entry types which are
>>>>                 heavier and more expensive.
>>>>
>>>>                 I didn't shop Garhauer and I probably should have
>>>>                 but the original stanchions were JUNK so anything
>>>>                 was an upgrade!  The metal in the replacement
>>>>                 stanchions was much heavier gage and with the
>>>>                 reinforced foot design of the gate type stanchion
>>>>                 there was no comparison between quality or strength
>>>>                 of the two types.
>>>>
>>>>                 The reason I bring this up is some of our members
>>>>                 may have stanchions like the ones I replaced which
>>>>                 may be a disaster waiting to happen.  If the
>>>>                 stanchions at the front of the gate are like the
>>>>                 thin, weak ones like I had they could fail.  The
>>>>                 thin tube original stanchions may be OK for middle
>>>>                 of the lifeline mounts but where the gates
>>>>                 terminate they are inadequate
>>>>
>>>>                 Tom Troncalli
>>>>
>>>>                     ----- Original Message -----
>>>>                     *From:*Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>>>                     *To: *Catalina 38 Listserve
>>>>                     <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>>                     *Sent:*1/25/2011 12:00:20 PM
>>>>                     *Subject:*Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>                     Steve, do they have the same footprint???
>>>>                     Regards, max
>>>>
>>>>                     Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     On Jan 25, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Steven Ribble
>>>>                     <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>>                     <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                         Our stanchions are Garhauer...I replaced a
>>>>                         couple last season...about $50 each.
>>>>
>>>>                         On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Max Soto
>>>>                         <maxsoto at gmail.com
>>>>                         <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>                         Hey Steve,
>>>>
>>>>                         I'm not surprised if they were made by
>>>>                         Garhauer......
>>>>
>>>>                         Regards,
>>>>
>>>>                         Max
>>>>
>>>>

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