[C38] Stanchions
Anders Finn
anders at finn.ws
Tue Feb 1 02:12:57 EST 2011
Max,
I'll give them a ring tomorrow. Yeah, 10" spacing for the slots is a lot
more. I honestly didn't look at the spec. after they told me what I
should be looking at. . . That was dumb.
Anders
On 01/31/2011 08:55 PM, Max Soto wrote:
> That one is totally different than mine...The slots are spaced 10"
> away and this one uses #10 fasteners, mine also has some kind of edge
> on the bottom of the external side.. I just found an old 2002 West
> Marine Catalog with the toe rail on Estancia... Is also from Taco and
> the serial is A62-0086bkh26d, but I guess is no longer in production....
>
> Here are the pics from my toe rail, and let me say that mine looks
> like a rat did the holes and not a worm...... 90% of the holes are
> located on the stern on port side, and also noticed some corrosion
> around the fasteners, but only on that same section, the rest is in
> great shape....... I don't know what the hell could be causing the
> electrolysis in that area only.........
>
> Regards, Max
>
> 2011/1/31 Anders Finn <anders at finn.ws <mailto:anders at finn.ws>>
>
> Ask and you shall recieve
>
> http://tacomarine.com/item--1-9-16-x-1-1-2-Aluminum-Sailboat-Toe-Rail--A62-0009.html
>
> According to the tech's at Taco Marine, this is our toe rail spec.
>
> Anders
>
>
> On 01/30/2011 12:56 AM, Steve Smolinske wrote:
>> I have worm holes on the aft section of the stbd rail far away
>> from the gates. Good luck fishing that line I did that once took
>> me most of a morning
>>
>> Steve Smolinske
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 7:55 PM, "Patrick Harpole"
>> <1derful at comcast.net <mailto:1derful at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Speaking of stanchions and "worm holes" I got the pleasure of
>>> worming a wire through pulpit (aka stanchion) because the bow
>>> navigation light wiring failed.*
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Catalina 38 Listserve <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 29, 2011 5:31 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>
>>> The weirdest thing is that the worm holes on the rails are
>>> not located near a single fastener. Thy are located on the
>>> sides of the rails... Most of them on a single side.....
>>> Max
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>
>>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 6:09 PM, S Orton <ssorton at hotmail.com
>>> <mailto:ssorton at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I should of continued with the "worm hole" discussion,
>>>> adding I don't consider it a structural problem unless a
>>>> hole develops at several adjacent fasteners thereby
>>>> destroying the clamping force between the hull and deck.
>>>> If it is a hole here and there, fill it with 5200 and
>>>> forget it.
>>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:26:43 -0500
>>>> From: steve.ribble at gmail.com <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>> Don't know who made the toerail, but the same cross section
>>>> is used by several different boat builders of the era so it
>>>> must be an established extruder...I had the same thing on a
>>>> 1980 Mirage.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Chuck Finn
>>>> <charles at finn.ws <mailto:charles at finn.ws>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>> I called Garhauer yesterday about stanchions and the
>>>> toerail. Mike told me they never made the toerail as
>>>> that is not something they are set up for. He was
>>>> interested in my idea of a toerail stanchion, but would
>>>> make no comment until he had seen what our toerail
>>>> looks like. He offered to work with me on this after I
>>>> got him some specs/pictures of our rail. Does anyone
>>>> have a cross-sectional view and/or measurements?
>>>>
>>>> If I were to guess, I would say our toerails were made
>>>> of T6 aluminum as it extrudes and anodizes well and is
>>>> one of the hardest and strongest types. I have cut
>>>> this stuff on a lathe and it does not remotely behave
>>>> like ordinary aluminum! You need ear protection. I
>>>> agree with Steve O. that low bidder could be our
>>>> problem here, which of course would vary by batches and
>>>> years. All aluminum I am aware of can contain some
>>>> small levels of iron, but I recall Grumman successfully
>>>> figured out how to reduce this back when they were the
>>>> aircraft frame folks. By the way, don't try to weld on
>>>> this stuff as it requires TIG and a lot of practice!
>>>> One more thing, aluminum can corrode when exposed. The
>>>> neat thing about this stuff is it almost immediately
>>>> begins to form an impermeable skin as part of the
>>>> corrosion process that essentially stops further
>>>> corrosion and it is able to do this across a wide PH
>>>> range. Now you know pretty much all I know about this
>>>> stuff!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Finn
>>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>>> Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>> On 1/29/2011 12:19 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Phil, I don't think a backing plate is worth the
>>>> effort- the underside clearance/access is very
>>>> tough. Use oversize washers if possible. If the
>>>> holes are rotted out, fill with epoxie and
>>>> redrill. My toe rail also has worm holes, near the
>>>> gates. I assumed the reason was low bidder on the
>>>> extrusions with much more impurities included. The
>>>> aircraft specs would preclude what we a seeing.
>>>> Has anybody contacted Garhauer about this problem?
>>>> I can understand corrosion at the SS fasteners, but
>>>> these worm holes appear unrelated.
>>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:09:44 -0500
>>>> From: steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>
>>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>> Great thought about the backing plate, Phil. I've
>>>> always considered stanchions and lifelines to be
>>>> expendable in the event of emergencies...that they
>>>> were basically to break your fall, not necessarily
>>>> there to support the weight of the world. That
>>>> said, obviously I/we don't want to replace these
>>>> things every month or two so they need to be stout
>>>> enough. It seems like one of the first things to
>>>> go, when looking at the entire stanchion "system"
>>>> is the through-bolt hole (as Phil indicated) and
>>>> that a backing plate would disperse the
>>>> loads/forces among the 4 bolts/holes rather than
>>>> the two that experience expansion when torque is
>>>> applied the the stanchion. Long story short,
>>>> assuming we're all not going to run out and replace
>>>> our stanchions for another design, that Garhauer
>>>> already has the the backing plate (the base prior
>>>> to welding to the stanchion tube) so it should be
>>>> an easy and relatively inexpensive process to
>>>> upgrade the holding power of our existing equipment.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Phil Gay
>>>> <eyriepg at comcast.net <mailto:eyriepg at comcast.net>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I thought I would explain what I think I know
>>>> about metals from my aircraft engineering
>>>> background. I agree that the toe rail on our
>>>> C38s is an aluminum alloy. Pure aluminum does
>>>> create its own oxide coating which retards
>>>> corrosion. But, when it is alloyed to increase
>>>> its hardness and strength, it loses the ability
>>>> to protect itself unless it has a pure aluminum
>>>> cladding on the surface. Typically these
>>>> alloys have an anodic coating (the dark surface
>>>> on our toe rails) or a chemical conversion
>>>> coating which created this protective oxide on
>>>> the exterior surface.
>>>>
>>>> Near the bow of my C38 the toe rail has started
>>>> to pit. I don’t think it has progressed much
>>>> lately with all the rain water that we get here
>>>> in the NW. I doubt that it has weakened the
>>>> extrusion much at all. I agree with the
>>>> statements about the loads on the stanchions.
>>>> Later model Catalinas have the stanchions that
>>>> fit into sockets molded into the toe rail as
>>>> well as being bolted through base plates to the
>>>> deck. BTW I am pretty sure that the deck area
>>>> where the toe rails are attached on our C38s is
>>>> solid un-cored fiberglass. A lot of the
>>>> looseness of the bases is caused by the rocking
>>>> of the bolts, and subsequent elongation of the
>>>> holes, because they don’t have backing plates
>>>> to hold them vertical. I think that there are
>>>> ways to securely attach our stanchions to the
>>>> toe rail if they are also bolted inboard to the
>>>> deck. I have also thought about having the
>>>> existing stanchions modified so that they angle
>>>> outboard to allow more room to pass around the
>>>> shrouds.
>>>>
>>>> Phil Gay
>>>> C38 049 Que Linda
>>>> Everett WA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:*listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>> <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>
>>>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>>>> <mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org>] *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Anders Finn
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 4:25 PM
>>>>
>>>> *To:* listserve at catalina38.org
>>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really? I thought that toe rail was aluminum.
>>>> Should be pretty resistant to salt corrosion. I
>>>> think what my old man is trying to say is that
>>>> the toe rail is at least as strong, if not
>>>> stronger than the plywood under the deck to
>>>> which the stanchions are currently screwed
>>>> into. It would be interesting to know the
>>>> dimensions of the toe rail if anyone has them
>>>> (I think my dad is going up to measure in a few
>>>> weeks) and I can figure out what kind of moment
>>>> could be applied safely to the toe rail if one
>>>> could find a way to apply the load evenly.
>>>>
>>>> Anders
>>>>
>>>> On 01/28/2011 04:06 PM, Don Strong wrote:
>>>> The toe rail really is not that tough. As
>>>> well, in salty boats as old as mine (1980), the
>>>> toe rail has some indication of chemical
>>>> decomposition along the bottom side. I treat my
>>>> toe rail with care. Like the rest of this
>>>> wonderful 30 year old device, I hope it lasts
>>>> longer than I last.
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>> On 1/28/11 2:15 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>>> Think about pivot point. If there is indeed
>>>> only two bolts, the only thing keeping it from
>>>> pivoting is compression between the plate and
>>>> the toe rail. The bolts are there simply to
>>>> provide a leverage point. That's what concerns me.
>>>>
>>>> Anders
>>>>
>>>> On 01/28/2011 02:13 PM, Chuck Finn wrote:
>>>> This type of fitting is used by: C&C, Hunter,
>>>> PDQ, Bayfield, and Freedom yachts. I think the
>>>> footprint is the entire toerail, which is
>>>> significantly stronger than our pad fastened to
>>>> a plywood deck.... If I was to worry about
>>>> strength, it would be the shear force exerted
>>>> on the bolts if the toerail stanchion base is
>>>> not a good fit with our toerail... I would
>>>> weld the stanchion to the base rather than rely
>>>> on the throughbolt. I can also comment on the
>>>> strength of at least the C&C toerail as I have
>>>> raced these boats and that means bounced a time
>>>> or two off the lines and stanchions! Have
>>>> crewed Hunters as well, but don't remember the
>>>> stanchion design.
>>>>
>>>> I think my next step will be to contact
>>>> Garhauer as they are reputed to have first made
>>>> our toerail. I also could easily fabricate my
>>>> own bases that would incorporate Ander's ideas.
>>>>
>>>> But, will it look pretty?
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Finn
>>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>>> Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/28/2011 4:16 PM, Anders Finn wrote:
>>>> Yeah, I just got a chance to look at this. I
>>>> think Steve is right here about a large drop in
>>>> torsional resistance. However, that being said,
>>>> those stanchions forward of the cockpit are not
>>>> really THAT strong. I would like to see at
>>>> least a three bolt design with a larger outer
>>>> plate to provide some surface to disperse the
>>>> torque to the hull.
>>>>
>>>> Anders
>>>>
>>>> PS. They say they're used on Freedom 32's
>>>> however, from pictures, I can't see anything
>>>> resembling a toe rail that would support load
>>>> on them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/28/2011 12:42 PM, S Orton wrote:
>>>> Chuck, If I understand the concept correctly,
>>>> it is a very poor structural design. There is
>>>> no foot print to react the outward cantilever
>>>> force on the stantion- you need a four bolt
>>>> pattern to react this force in all
>>>> directions and I only saw two fasteners
>>>> parallel to the toe rail.
>>>> Cheers, Steve O
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:27:31 -0500
>>>> From: charles at finn.ws <mailto:charles at finn.ws>
>>>> To: listserve at catalina38.org
>>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>> Max,
>>>> Here is the rigrite url:
>>>> http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail
>>>> <http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Stanchions_&_Bases/Stanchion_Bases_SS.html#SS%20Stanchion%20Bases%20that%20Attach%20to%20Toerail>
>>>>
>>>> As you can see, this would put the stanchion on
>>>> the outside edge of our toerail and would
>>>> eliminate the base. This would result in a lot
>>>> of room on the deck. I am thinking of using
>>>> two of the bases for the gate and then moving
>>>> forward. My issue about this would look is
>>>> that I will have to connect to the stern rails
>>>> and bow pulpit, which would remain as they are.
>>>> I would also have to fill all the holes in the
>>>> deck from where the plates were and re-route
>>>> the holding tank vent, but that would be worth
>>>> it for the extra room on deck and the
>>>> elimination of possible leaks.
>>>>
>>>> What to our C38 folks think?
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Finn
>>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>>> Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/27/2011 11:21 AM, Max Soto wrote:
>>>> Chuck, Did you send a link for the rigrite
>>>> stanchions?
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Max
>>>>
>>>> 2011/1/26 Chuck Finn <charles at finn.ws
>>>> <mailto:charles at finn.ws>>
>>>> One way I know it is sailing season is the
>>>> scrape on my shin obtained as I climb from the
>>>> cabin to the cockpit. The other wound is the
>>>> bruises on the side of both legs as I bang into
>>>> the stanchions. I love the look of our boats,
>>>> but the design idea that the stanchions should
>>>> follow the inward bend of the tumblehome really
>>>> does not work for me. There just is not enough
>>>> deck for a guy my size. I am still considering
>>>> bending and re-welding the current stanchions
>>>> into a vertical position, but perhaps even a
>>>> better solution would be to remove the current
>>>> stanchions altogether and going with a toe rail
>>>> stanchion like you see on C&C yachts.
>>>> Rigrite.com <http://Rigrite.com> has these.
>>>> Attaching stanchions directly to our toerail
>>>> seems to be a viable option as the rail is
>>>> really heavy duty. Additionally, you can buy
>>>> the bases and use the current tubing assuming
>>>> it is not the light weight stuff Tom has
>>>> commented on. This would give us a lot more
>>>> deck space for size 11 feet.
>>>> Just thinking aloud at this point, but I really
>>>> am tired of the bruising!
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Finn
>>>> Mighty Quinn #114
>>>> Great Lakes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/25/2011 3:25 PM, Max Soto wrote:
>>>> Good to know that they share the same foot
>>>> print... If the removable stanchion's base also
>>>> fits, I'll go for that one next time..... A
>>>> little heavier, but if they bend, it will be so
>>>> much easier to replace.......
>>>> Thanks, Max
>>>>
>>>> 2011/1/25 Steven Ribble <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>>
>>>> Max, yes...same foot print. Garhauer has a
>>>> square-ish base that I think are for removable
>>>> stanchions and a one that's trapezoidal for the
>>>> solid/fixed type, which is what mine are (also
>>>> characterized by the "flat top"). I can't
>>>> speak to the quality comment that Tom refers
>>>> to, I just know mine have been on the boat for
>>>> 30 years and only needed to be replaced because
>>>> the over-wintering force exerted by the
>>>> shrinkwrap caused them to bend. I thought I
>>>> saw reinforced/gate style stanchions on their
>>>> website, but don't know about the footprint.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Tom T.
>>>> <tdtron at earthlink.net
>>>> <mailto:tdtron at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> After hurricane Dennis (the Menace) skirted
>>>> Tampa Bay a few years ago with a near miss, we
>>>> got tangled up with a piling with the surge and
>>>> had our starboard lifelines damaged along with
>>>> the stanchions on that side.
>>>>
>>>> I replaced the stanchions near the rail at the
>>>> aft end of the cabin with Catalina Direct
>>>> stanchions. I replaced both sides so they would
>>>> match. My boat had standard stanchions and
>>>> those stanchions should have been the
>>>> reinforced gate entry types which are heavier
>>>> and more expensive.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't shop Garhauer and I probably should
>>>> have but the original stanchions were JUNK so
>>>> anything was an upgrade! The metal in the
>>>> replacement stanchions was much heavier gage
>>>> and with the reinforced foot design of the gate
>>>> type stanchion there was no comparison between
>>>> quality or strength of the two types.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I bring this up is some of our
>>>> members may have stanchions like the ones I
>>>> replaced which may be a disaster waiting to
>>>> happen. If the stanchions at the front of the
>>>> gate are like the thin, weak ones like I had
>>>> they could fail. The thin tube original
>>>> stanchions may be OK for middle of the
>>>> lifeline mounts but where the gates terminate
>>>> they are inadequate
>>>>
>>>> Tom Troncalli
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:*Max Soto <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>
>>>> *To: *Catalina 38 Listserve
>>>> <mailto:listserve at catalina38.org>
>>>> *Sent:*1/25/2011 12:00:20 PM
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [C38] Stanchions
>>>>
>>>> Steve, do they have the same footprint???
>>>> Regards, max
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 25, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Steven Ribble
>>>> <steve.ribble at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:steve.ribble at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Our stanchions are Garhauer...I
>>>> replaced a couple last season...about
>>>> $50 each.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Max
>>>> Soto <maxsoto at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:maxsoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hey Steve,
>>>>
>>>> I'm not surprised if they were made by
>>>> Garhauer......
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Max
>>>>
>>>> 2011/1/24 Steve Smolinske
>>>> <SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com
>>>> <mailto:SSmolinske at rainierrubber.com>>
>>>> Does anyone know who made our stanchions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve Smolinske
>>>> President
>>>>
>>>> 425-227-4500
>>>> www.RainierRubber.com
>>>> <http://www.RainierRubber.com>
>>>>
>>>> The information contained in this email
>>>> may be confidential and/or proprietary
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>>>> recipient of the email only. Please
>>>> treat all information contained in this
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Max Soto
>>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Steve Ribble
>>>> 207/852-0971
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Steve Ribble
>>>> 207/852-0971
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Max Soto
>>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Max Soto
>>>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>>>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Steve Ribble
>>>> 207/852-0971
>>>>
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