[C38] C38: Bent rudder post
Jon Whitney
jonwhit23 at aol.com
Wed Jun 5 17:55:52 EDT 2013
Hey Mark,
You may not need to haul the boat out. Long story short, I got struck by
a whale a few years back and bent the rudder stock and we dropped the
rudder (which floats by the way) in the slip, repaired it, and put it
back in (all in the water). The hole where the rudder goes into the boat
is safely above the waterline (by about an inch or two) so you can pull
it out in the water, use one of those big wood plugs to plug the hole
while its getting repaired - then pop it back in.
Ok, so here's the short story long. The whale hit us broadside and
clipped the bottom of the rudder, bending the bottom about 6" to the
starboard side. The whale was fine (prop not on) and she barely skimmed
the bottom of the rudder). The boat wouldn't turn starboard at all, but
she still turned to port enough to get us home safely (although our GPS
track was a squiggly mess of left turns).
So to pull the rudder out (while in the water), I had to remove the
steering assembly, and those 5 bolts holding the quadrant to the rudder
post were an incredible pain to break free (as Max mentioned). They are
stainless bolts in an aluminum quadrant and likely have not been removed
ever. It took me several days in that hole under the cockpit to get it
off. I eventually had to borrow an 3/8"-drive impact gun and compressor
from a mechanic friend. Although the gun eventually did break them
free, it still took the combination blow torch, PB blaster, and cranking
on each bolt with the gun for about 40 minutes each to break them free
(I would just start with this approach and save yourself time). It was
amazing how stuck they were in there (and how much space you dont have
working down there!). There are also the two little machine head screws
(with nuts) that hold the edges of the two quadrants together, that I
hadn't noticed at first and discovered when I couldn't pry the two
freed-halves apart.
After finally getting the steering assembly off, and removing the
stainless cap that the rudder attaches to in the helm (which came off
almost without the need for a wrench), I could see that the rudder post
is in fact hollow (sides are about 1/4" thick) and inside is filled with
foam. Because the rudder post was bent, the rudder did not come out
very easily. I had to pound on it with a rubber mallet (for about 20
minutes) pour in penetrating oil, while my buddy turned the rudder
manually in the water. After it was unseized, we pulled the rudder post
out of the bottom of the boat and did the best we could to control the
rudders ascent (we had two of us snorkeling and bear hugging the rudder
and pushing it down with our feet while pushing up on the hull with our
hands until the post was through. Once the rudder post is all the way
out, it becomes very evident that *its positively bouyant*, and how
tricky it is to control even with two bodies holding it (i.e., keeping
it from slamming into the hull on its way up).
After it was out of the water, we could assess the damage. The rudder
post was bent about 3" off center over the 32" it sticks out (not too
bad) and the fiberglass around the upper portion of the post was
cracked. I took it to a local metal fabrication shop in Honolulu, and
they straightened it back out no problem using a 120,000lb press (took
about 40 minutes and $80). Next is repairing the fiberglass (if
damaged). At the time I hadn't had much experience with fiberglass so I
took it to a glass-guy who patched the crack and resurfaced the
fiberglass, and put a couple coats of bottom paint on it (he had it two
days and charged me $400 for everything).
We then got snorkeled up again, put the rudder in the water, which will
just float there, and then try to put it back in. This is the part that
took the most finesse and was the most entertaining for those on the
dock. The rudder will float on the surface (and it is quite bouyant with
all that foam) so me and my friend had to basically ride the rudder,
turn it vertical, and push it down (while keeping it vertical) deep
enough to get the top of the rudder post into the hole in the hull. We
tied a bag of dive weights (20lbs) to the rudder to make it more
neutrally bouyant and keep it vertical, which helped us alot. Once we
got into into the hull (straight) the bouyancy of the rudder pushed it
all the way up flush with the hull. This was one of those ecstatic
moments till I realized that I forget to put the plastic washer on the
post, which protects shaffing between the rudder and the hull (remember
to put that on). So we had to pull it off again put the washer back on -
and do it all over again. We started to get good at it! Once the post
is in - then you pop that stainless post cap (on the helm seat) on and
through-bolt it to secure it (although once its in - its not going
anywhere as the positive buoyancy keeps it in place. Re-attach the
steering quadrant, re-run the cables, and hook it all back up. I ended
up replacing the stainless steel cables that turn the quadrant (as they
were frayed) and replaced all the bolts in the steering quadrant (and
made sure to coat them all with anti-sieze before going in) and the
cable hardware and threaded padeyes (which were bent) where the steering
cables attach to the quadrants. Also, lubricate the chain as well and
check all connections, between chain, cable.
Lil advice: use the opportunity of having the steering assembly and
rudder out of the way to do any other work in that aft hole under the
cockpit. I replaced a few bilge hose lines and a new blower hose. In
hindsight, I should have also used the opportunity to replace the hose
and hose clamps on the cockpit scuppers and re-bed/seal the steering
pedestal to the floor of the cockpit.
In summary, its totally doable in the water (with a little help) and
doesn't require a haul-out. If the glass isn't damaged all you need is a
machine press - and should cost you <$100 and a few days getting the
steering system off and on.
Total cost and time summary (for my project): 5 days and ~$600
-Removing steering assembly (2 days, but should take less than 3 hours
if you just use impact gun & torch straight away) (need propane torch,
PB blaster, impact gun, and compressor)
-Pulling rudder out - in the slip (1 hour, beer for friend)
-Straightening rudder post (machine press, $80,1 hour).
-Repairing cracked fiberglass & repainting (2 days, $400)
-Putting rudder back onto boat - in the slip (1 hour, beer for friend)
-Re-assembling steering quadrant to rudder, re-assembling steering
cables (3 hours).
Let me know if you have any questions about how we did it - I'd be happy
to help in anyway I can. Good luck.
Jon Whitney
"Eye Whitness"
1979, Hull 54
Honolulu
PhD student
Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology
University of Hawaii at Manoa
PO Box 1346
Kaneohe, HI 96744 USA
Phone: (808) 348-3254
On 6/5/2013 6:00 AM, listserve-request at catalina38.org wrote:
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> 1. Re: Universal M30/5424 reduction ratio -- Prop size (Max soto)
> 2. Re: Dues '13-'14 (S Orton)
> 3. C38: Bent Rudder Post (Mark O'Dell)
> 4. Re: C38: Bent Rudder Post (Steven Ribble)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:46:01 -0600
> From: Max soto<maxsoto at gmail.com>
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Subject: Re: [C38] Universal M30/5424 reduction ratio -- Prop size
> Message-ID:<6367FBE3-B9E6-44DB-A1C5-95CD661E529C at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Jon, the HBW 100 is suppossed to be 2:1, and thats what the tags says, but as a fact, that right ratio is 1.8:1. Several C38 owners found that out when they ordered a new prop with the 2:1 ratio, and the prop turned out to be over pitched, so, after careful measuring, they found out the discrepancy.. This is not only C38 related. Every HBW 100 that says 2:1 is in fact 1.8:1..
> I did a rebuilt on my tranny, and just curiosity, I checked it and is 1.8:1..
>
> Hope this helps..
>
>
> Max Soto A.
> C38 #198 Estancia
> +506-8312-1367
> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>
> On Jun 4, 2013, at 8:12 PM, Jon Whitney<jonwhit23 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>> I was just researching the proper prop size and pitch to match the Universal M30/5424 on our Cat38's (as I'm sure many of you have done). I just got off the phone with Catalina Direct and we stumbled upon an interesting question that you may know the answer to. We were looking up the gear reduction ratio on the transmission for the original M30/5424 and found a discrepancy in the ratios reported by Catalina and Universal.
>>
>> The Universal Maintenance Manual for models 5411/5416/5424/5432 states that the transmission reduction ratio is 2.14:1 (with an HBW-10 Hurth Transmission) on the 5424 (24 hp, 3 cylinder, 2800 max rpm). However the Catalina factory specs state that the gear reduction ratio is 2:1 (for the same engine). Does anyone know which is accurate and why the discrepancy?
>>
>> The difference doesn't seem like much, but when they punched all the numbers to determine ideal prop size it changes the pitch ~ 1 inch. E.g., using the 2-blade fixed prop a ratio of 2:1 gives 15" x 13" pitch (13.3" to be exact), whereas the ratio of 2.14:1 gives 15" x 14".
>>
>> From what I could gather the older S&S C38's with the Universal M30/5424 came standard with a 2-blade 15"x13" and an optional 3-blade 15"x12". Obviously, the 15"x13" is fine as thats probably what most of us have had, but just wondering which ratio/pitch is more accurate and if anyone has used the larger (15"x14") prop size. As always, I'm grateful for any advice.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jon Whitney
>> 1979 Hull #54
>> "Eye Whitness"
>> Honolulu, Hawaii
>>
>> ps. Thanks to everyone for their comments on thru-hulls sizes (especially Max, Les, and Steve).
>>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 22:06:15 -0600
> From: S Orton<ssorton at hotmail.com>
> To: Cat 38<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Subject: Re: [C38] Dues '13-'14
> Message-ID:<BAY177-W40F2F0409C4D5B1D09970DA79F0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, I did. Thanks, Steve O
>
> Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 21:43:39 +0000
> From: 1derful at comcast.net
> To: listserve at catalina38.org
> Subject: Re: [C38] Dues '13-'14
>
> Steve,
>
>
>
> Did you receive my payment?
>
>
>
> Patrick Harpole
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmills3 at comcast.net
> To: "Catalina 38 Listserve"<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:37:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [C38] Dues '13-'14
>
>
>
>
>
> Dan Miller, 3826 Glenmore Av, Baltimore MD 21206, the Blonde Stranger #108 just paid dues using PayPal. When I clicked on "print receipt" I got 2 pages of Red Box advertisements.
>
>
>
> From: "S Orton"<ssorton at hotmail.com>
> To: "Cat 38"<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:22:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [C38] Dues '13-'14
>
>
>
>
> Go to our web site (http://www.catalina38.org/), click on the "STORE" tab and follow directions. If you are a new member, you need to send me your address, etc so I can get you on the MAINSHEET mailing list. Cheers, Steve O
>
>
>
>
>
> From: bikahoga at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:18:10 -0400
> To: listserve at catalina38.org
> Subject: Re: [C38] Dues '13-'14
>
> How can I pay by paypal? thanks
>
>
> On May 13, 2013, at 3:45 PM, S Orton<ssorton at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> All,
> It is time to keep our organization going and to send in your dues of $25 (mailed directly to the Treasurer) or $26 to PayPal through the CAT 38 web site. I need to collect the dues before the end of June, because early in July I need to send in to the MAINSHEET the mailing for paid up members. The following members have already paid:
> Marci Brown Gary Bush Jack Payne Jay Sorensen Robert Stammerjohn David Wordell Martin Skertchly Suzanne Hoverman
>
>
> Presently there is about $1020 in the bank account and in PayPal there is more which the webmaster (Anders) needs to report. I also need to have him report who paid for '13-'14 through PayPal. I have not been able to signin to that account for some reason. We need to do some organizing here.
>
>
> Thanks for all your support, Steve Orton, Catalina 38 Treasurer
> 10611 SE Cisco Rd.
> Port Orchard, WA 98367_______________________________________________
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> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 10:36:42 -0400
> From: Mark O'Dell<mixedbusinesscontact at gmail.com>
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Subject: [C38] C38: Bent Rudder Post
> Message-ID:<8CF407B9-1727-449A-BC95-81595666E9E5 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Hey C38ers? I had a bit of a mishap last night and I need some advice.
>
> While seeking some shelter from the wind for a headsail change on the far side of our bay we ended up finding (and hitting) an underwater obstruction.
>
> We hit pretty hard twice on the rudder. The helm shook a bit but didn't seem too bad until we realized we lost all steerage to starboard. We had full range of steering to port, but zero from center to starb. The wheel just stopped.
>
> I quickly checked all cables, the quadrant, the bilge, the dive shaft and stuffing box (no leaks, shewww!) and all was as it should be, but still no steering.
>
> I went over board a bit to see and feel what I could, but there is no seeing anything in the chocolate waters of the chesapeake, and I couldn't feel anything obstructing the rudder.
>
> After getting precarious tow back to the yard and to the slip, we made plans to pull Momentous and see what's what? so now I fear the following:
>
> If we hit while the rudder was cocked to port, we might have bent the rudder post enough to prevent the rudder from passing the centerline of the boat / hull.
>
> So? if that is the case:
>
> - Is it easy enough to pull the rudder, heat the post, and straighten it?
> - Is it possible to shave off the top of the rudder enough and leave the post as is? (Would heating and straightening it weaken the post at all?)
> - Is the post solid or hollow?
>
> Anyone have any experience with this?
>
> Typical... it's also the weekend where my wife said to me out of the blue, "Let's go cursing this weekend!"
>
> Bummed,
>
> Mark O'Dell
> Momentous #230
> Baltimore, MD
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 10:51:20 -0400
> From: Steven Ribble<steve.ribble at gmail.com>
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve<listserve at catalina38.org>
> Subject: Re: [C38] C38: Bent Rudder Post
> Message-ID:
> <CAKrT=P=eqXs1imNt4xDwtBdeMxkzev=KQh4z2tquL0xhFbUHqA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Mark, sorry to hear about your trouble, and yes...it always happens when
> your wife is suddenly into it.
>
> I laid aground on a falling tide a few years ago and slightly canted my
> rudder post. In itself it might not have been too bad, but the boat
> wouldn't [continue] to steer itself straight as it had previously. So I
> hauled it and the advice I was given is that you don't want to re-bend
> (straighten) the post due to 1) the weakening of a rather important
> component of the boat's safety and 2) due to potential damage/loosening of
> the box/ladder structure within the rudder. I ended up with a new rudder.
>
> Issues we had were heavily related to the difficulty of removing the
> stainless bolts which were corroded into the aluminum quadrant...not fun
> and took too much time for them to work me into their [full] work load.
> Ended up taking a couple months before I was back in the water.
>
> The benefit to all of this is that the new rudder is water tight (not sure
> about the previous one) and solid so I don't worry about it's integrity.
> Best of luck!
>
> Steve
> Tittravate, #64
>
>
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