[C38] Thanks Ray: Autopilot installation, Discreet Charm
Max soto
maxsoto at gmail.com
Mon Feb 15 16:53:45 EST 2021
Ok guys, I just got a tiller arm for my rudder, so I’m just ready to install the installation on Estancia. This are around $600, posted an add on Sailboat Swap Shop (facebook group) for any tiller arm, and the only guy that had one available was a previos C38 owner that had it made by Edson and never installed it. Sold the boat yeas ago, kept the arm and sold it to me for $100!!!
Will keep you posted on the project.....
Max Soto A.
+506-8312-1367
Alajuela, Costa Rica
> On Aug 16, 2020, at 21:51, Max soto <maxsoto at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ray, that was an excellent explanation. Down here there are no autopilot distribution of any brand, so support won’t be an issue if I’m selecting a new AP. I’m crossing my fingers to succeed in the installation of the old/new Autohelm that I got. If not, I’ll start looking for some other options. I like the simplicity of Pelagic. Just like you, not a fan of having everything tied up on the same network.
>
> Thanks for the info.
> Max Soto A.
> +506-8312-1367
> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>
>>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 19:32, Ray Torok <torok13731 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Hi Max,
>>
>> The Pelagic worked well for me, but it may be that all the AP suppliers are now using similar systems and control algorithms, and would work equally well. The cool thing about the 3D gyro systems is that the computer is constantly watching the yaw, pitch and roll of the boat, so if there is a sudden change or high rate of change, the AP reacts more quickly and strongly than an old autopilot that only understands how far off the desired heading the boat is.
>>
>> For the C38 sailing downwind, the dominant contributor to the autopilot error signal is probably yaw. With our old autopilot, it seemed the boat would be 20 degrees off course before the AP knew there was a problem. And the boat might be 40 or 50 degrees off course before the AP could bring it back (even with the gain cranked all the way up). With the new one, the AP almost immediately detects the high yaw rate and starts responding much earlier and much more forcefully.
>>
>> I don't know, but suspect that most or all the AP systems being sold now have similar capabilities, so whichever ones you are considering, it's worth asking about that. Also, with the Pelagic, you don't get all the nifty features of APs that are part of an integrated system, communicating with the chartplotter - stuff like having the AP follow a string of preprogrammed waypoints. I was actually avoiding the highly integrated systems, because I was worried that a single failure somewhere in the system might disable all the components - chartplotter, instruments, AP, radar, AIS, etc. - the whole show. (I don't know if my Raymarine integrated system has such failure modes, but they are not uncommon, and I didn't want to take the chance.) So in my setup there are no connections between the AP and the navigation system.
>>
>> With the Pelagic, you put the boat on the course you want and then engage the autopilot. You can make course changes in 2 degree increments, and there is also a tack function. I got in the habit of using the chartplotter or a chart to figure out what heading I wanted (sometimes using waypoints preprogrammed in the chartplotter), and then tweaking the Pelagic setpoint until the course over the bottom (including current, leeway, etc.) was correct. Some of the other brands may be easier to use. For example, I know of a newer Raymarine control head where you simply twist a dial to the compass heading you want. Depending on the type of sailing you're doing, that might be more convenient (but you still want the 3D gyro functionality).
>>
>> I suspect you will also find the Pelagic is less expensive than the name brands, and for me, their service was phenomenal. For example, I had trouble setting up the rudder stops based on the rudder position sensor input, and the designer, Brian Boschma, responded immediately and came to my boat the next day. You are bit more remote, so I'm not sure what type of support you could expect, but it's probably a good idea to ask ahead of time.
>>
>> I hope this helps,
>> Ray
>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM Max soto <maxsoto at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Talk to me about that Pelagic autopilot. Just went to their web page. Is it that good?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Max Soto A.
>>> +506-8312-1367
>>> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>>>
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 07:37, Don Strong <drstrong at ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. To weather with the big keel, the Alpha is great, downwind in waves, all over the place. I have inquired about the cost and install of a Pelagic control head.
>>>> Regards, Don
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/15/20 6:54 PM, Ray Torok wrote:
>>>>> Don,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to pile on here, but the new generation of autopilots, with three axis gyro capabilities, are astonishingly superior to those of the olden days. I'm usually accused of being a dinosaur, but the facts are that the old AP's simply cannot steer a C38 downwind in waves, and the new ones can, better than most humans in my experience. So while your ram/quadrant assembly looks okay, my guess is you would be very impressed with a new control head.
>>>>>
>>>>> two cents,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 3:52 PM Don Strong <drstrong at ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> Max: Thanks for your interesting comments on my Alpha install. the Yacht Specialties pedestal and wheel are real fossils, but they continue to work; "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I must say that the only problems in 18 years of sailing with this autopilot are with nuts that loosen in the mechanism; I have learned to fix these with Locktite and drilling holes through the nut and bolt for securing with wire or a key.
>>>>>> My sailing buddies are condescending about my "analog" rig, but hey, It works!
>>>>>> Best of luck with your install.
>>>>>> Regards, Don
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/15/20 12:07 PM, Max soto wrote:
>>>>>>> Nice blog Don, that autopilots has a very simple set up. Love the fail safe engaging mechanism. The tiller arm is huge. Whoever installed it was really lucky that the boat has a Yacht Specialties radial wheel drive, which gives more space available than the Edson. I’m getting ideas from every pic I see.
>>>>>>> I got a complete New old stock Autohelm ST6000 With a huge linear drive actuator, which I’ll have to make it fit no matter what. Will take it to the boat next week after lockdown.
>>>>>>> The Cabo Rico building facility closed six years ago, anda that’s where I got my autopilot system for $80 only!
>>>>>>> I’m planning to replace the rudder in a near future, and after seeing the space available underneath an upsidown radial wheel installation, I’ll be following that route.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Max Soto A.
>>>>>>> +506-8312-1367
>>>>>>> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2020, at 12:28, Don Strong <drstrong at ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Max, Ray. The Alpha analog autopilot that came to us with Discreet Charm has worked for the 18 years that we have owned the boat. The install was very professional. Scroll down in the blog to Alpha autopilot. I would appreciate any comments. Have thought that if it failed I would go with a Pelagic as did Ray.
>>>>>>>> Regards, /don
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://techdiscreetcharm.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/20 11:11 AM, Ray Torok wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah. I think I got carried away.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can get a tiller arm in there, that is surely the better way to go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The C34 attachment to the wheel did not look that great to me, in light of how much force the actuator can generate, but if it works, it works.
>>>>>>>>> I chickened out on that type of attachment, because I am used to San Francisco, where it's often pretty windy, and you can really load things up.
>>>>>>>>> I did not change the position of the radial wheel, as that looked like a big job too (aluminum-stainless issues), and I thought it would have required
>>>>>>>>> remounting the turning blocks at the base of the pedestal to get the cable leads right. It might have been smarter to start over with a new wheel mounted higher.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The hard rudder stops were interesting, because the first time I tried it, the structure of the bulkhead at the aft end of the cockpit was so flexible and delaminated,
>>>>>>>>> that it just didn't work. I ended up injecting epoxy resin with fillers into the voids to stiffen it up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Buena suerte, Ray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:18 PM Max soto <maxsoto at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Wow Ray, that was a huge job! The rudder stop looks great. Did you radial drive wheel was installed like that? Mine is installed upside down. The bolts are below the wheel.. I saw the same on Steve Smolinske’s boat, but I think they made it on purpose to raise the wheel and install a tiler arm. They managed to install a tiller arm below the wheel.
>>>>>>>>>> Some people have installed the actuator directly to the wheel, which is what I was planning to do.. seems to be a common set up on Catalinas, even on the C42, but your set up seems much stronger.
>>>>>>>>>> The first pic is from a C34. Doesn’t look that good, but it works.
>>>>>>>>>> Second pic is from Steve’s boat. By raising the wheel I’ll have more room for work on a packing gland.
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Max Soto A.
>>>>>>>>>> +506-8312-1367
>>>>>>>>>> Alajuela, Costa Rica
>>>>>>>>>> <image0.jpeg>
>>>>>>>>>> <image1.jpeg>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 13, 2020, at 15:24, Ray Torok <torok13731 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Max,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure if this will help, but a couple of years ago I installed a below deck autopilot system.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This turned into a big job. I suppose I got carried away. Most people probably would not go to this much trouble or be okay paying someone to do it. However, I would note that it worked great on a trip from San Francisco to La Paz and back. We also replaced the old Raymarine control head with a Pelagic. The old system simply could not control the boat when sailing downwind with quartering seas. The new system drives the boat better than most people.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to install a below deck actuator for a couple of reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> · Bypass the steering cables to eliminate the slop introduced by the cable linkage and stretch (the old system used a motor/toothed gear assembly mounted on the pedestal)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> · Have backup steering in case a cable breaks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The main problems were:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> · Limited space for the actuator
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> · Not enough space on the rudder post to install a small tiller arm above or below the quadrant (really a 360 degree disk in this boat). If you don’t have that problem, the whole project gets much easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> · The quadrant is not strong enough to take the load that the actuator can generate if there is simply a bolted attachment (Edson warns not to attach a ram to the quadrant).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I ended up designing and building a set of aluminum rings that bolt onto the quadrant to distribute the load imparted by the ram. At the same time I installed hard rudder stops that a block mounted on the upper ring engages to limit rudder travel and prevent the ram from overrunning its range. I also installed a rudder position sensor that the control head uses to limit rudder travel when the autopilot is engaged, so it never tries to drive the rudder against the hard stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I ended up with a Lecomble & Schmitt hydraulic actuator, because it was the only one I found that would fit in the space available, as the pump and actuator were separate units connected by hoses. Longer electric units would extend into the cockpit locker and appeared much more difficult to mount. The static end of the actuator is bolted to an aluminum channel that is bolted to the underside of the cockpit sole behind the pedestal. I put the pump at the aft end of the cockpit locker, with the actuator just behind the adjacent partial bulkhead. I also cut a large hatch into the floor of the cockpit locker to get better access to both the engine and the quadrant area.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Selected photos are attached. I would be happy to discuss any of this further if that might help.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ray #38 Thira
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:10 PM Max soto <maxsoto at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>>>>>>> It’s been nine years since we were in this subject.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m going to make a second attempt to install a below deck unit. Will like something stronger than the wheelpilot.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume/hope that someone might have installed one In this years. If so, please send pics and tips.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have a Raymarine linear drIve type 1 ready to be installed. Hope I can make it fit somehow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Max Soto A.
>>>>>>>>>>>> +506-8312-1367
>>>>>>>>>>>> C38 Estancia #198
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <linear actuator - pump.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <Al channel to hold actuator.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <Al rings.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mounting bolts for actuator support.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <Al rings - rudder stops - position sensor attachment.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <pump enclosure.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <pump in cockpit locker.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> <quadrant - rudder position sensor.JPG>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Donald R. Strong
>>>>>>>> Professor,
>>>>>>>> Department of Evolution and Ecology
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
>>>>>>>> University of California, Davis,
>>>>>>>> Davis CA
>>>>>>>> 95616
>>>>>>>> 530 752 7886
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Listserve mailing list
>>>>>>>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>>>>>>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Listserve mailing list
>>>>>>> Listserve at catalina38.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Donald R. Strong
>>>>>> Professor,
>>>>>> Department of Evolution and Ecology
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
>>>>>> University of California, Davis,
>>>>>> Davis CA
>>>>>> 95616
>>>>>> 530 752 7886
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Donald R. Strong
>>>> Professor,
>>>> Department of Evolution and Ecology
>>>> and
>>>> The Bodega Marine Laboratory,
>>>> University of California, Davis,
>>>> Davis CA
>>>> 95616
>>>> 530 752 7886
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Listserve mailing list
>>>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
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