[C38] Catalina 38 in NW and Racing
alden Andre
alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com
Fri May 9 18:00:10 EDT 2008
Phil, you are correct there are a lot of c-38's in the North West. 5 on
the Columbia River alone. So I had an idea let's try to get as many
boats together to do the Oregon Offshore (Columbia River bar to
Victoria) and the swift sure race for 09. If we get enough boats to
commit we could have our own class. Just a thought I am committed for 09
for both of those races.
Alden Andre
Office: 877-550-FJ44(3544) or 503-618-1951
Cell: 503-929-8814
Fax: 503-907-5507
Email : alden at clifforddevelopmentgroup.com, or alden642 at comcast.net
-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Spartite VS Mast boot (S. Orton)
2. Re: Spartite VS Mast boot (Charles)
3. Re: Spartite VS Mast boot (Duff, Russ (R.W.))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:10:23 -0700
From: "S. Orton" <ssorton at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
To: "Catalina 38 Listserve" <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <000c01c8b1ff$f3b2fe70$0202a8c0 at SORTON1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Russ, The mast flexes relative to the collar, thus the loose shims work
their way out. I my opinion spartite is the only way to go. The
advantages
are:
1. The mast is held ridged at the deck level, increasing the column
strength of the mast and reducing the horizontal punch load of
the
mast at the deck.
2. A permanent seal is formed - probably for the life of the boat.
3. One less thing for your spinnaker to snag on - the band clamps on
the
boot.
4. It is probably cheaper in the long run.
The only down side is the installation time to prepare the boat and
apply.
You can't redo it without pulling the mast.
Steve Orton
Santa Susanna (hull # 304)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duff, Russ (R.W.)" <rduff at visteon.com>
To: <hlhowell at pacbell.net>; "Catalina 38 Listserve"
<listserve at catalina38.org>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
>I am almost positive there are no shims in mine. I bought her in spring
of
> '03 and have not removed the mast, but when I added the mast boot, I
am
> pretty sure there are no shims. It looks like I will go out and get
some.
> Does WM carry them?
>
> Sincerely,
> Russ Duff
> Catalina 38, Hull #112
> "AVANTURA"
> Lake Erie
> Grosse Ile, Michigan
> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Les
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:44 AM
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
>
> Long ago, rope gaskets were used to seal everything on a ship, so in
> that sense it is probably OK, but remember that if the rope is not
fully
> impregnated it will eventually rot, unless it is nylon and I am not
sure
> what would happen to nylon long term.
> However, the mast partners help transfer the energy from the sail to
> the boat hull. On our boats, the original design was to shim the mast
> into the partners with rubber blocks to help absorb shock loads, deal
> with flex (from the loading, and temperature affecting the fiberglass
> and wood), and transfer the constant energy to the boat's deck.
>
> With no shims, the loads are being held only by the mast step (about
> a
> 1/2" aluminum plate holds the foot of the mast, and locks it to the
mast
> step). I suspect that over time, this would mean some issues to the
> step, but you would have to ask Frank Butler or S&S about that. Also
> shock loads may make the mast flex out of column enough to strike the
> partners, and could cause fiberglass to crack, or the partners to take
> more stress than intended. Again, the designers could say more about
> that.
>
> Russ, I don't think any yard would step the mast without securing it
> to
> the partners in some fashion, are you sure there are no shims in your
> installation?
>
> Regards,
> Les H
>
> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 08:21 -0600, Max Soto wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> My boat came with rope three strand rope between the mast, deck and
>> collar. A sela of silicone is at the top preventing water to come in.
>> I had no leaks, but just in case I added mast collar seal tape.
>> Is it ok to have rope and silicone in here??
>>
>> Max
>>
>>
>> 2008/5/9, Duff, Russ (R.W.) <rduff at visteon.com>:
>> Somehow, I don't see how Spartite can make the mast partner
>> any more waterproof than a good mast boot. Am I missing
>> something? I installed a good rubber mast boot (appropriately
>> sealed) and have had no leaks. I also did not use any shims
>> when the mast was installed. Can this be a problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Russ Duff
>> Catalina 38, Hull #112
>> "AVANTURA"
>> Lake Erie
>> Grosse Ile, Michigan
>> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
>>
>> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>> Smolinske
>> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>> To: hlhowell at pacbell.net; Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've been told by both the yard and the rigger to be careful
>> with spartite both commented to make sure you follow the
>> directions and apply vaseline to the inside of the deck ring.
>> If not they warned that the spartite will adhere to both the
>> mast and the ring making it extremely difficult to remove the
>> mast in the future. We just had a new boot put on when the
>> mast got stepped, if we get water problems in the future I am
>> going to use the spartite. I like the load deflection
>> characteristics along with all the reviews about how well it
>> seals.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: Les
>> Sent: Thu 5/8/2008 10:24 PM
>> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 00:15 -0400, Charles wrote:
>> > By the way, I highly recommend Spartite. My mast and
collar
>> had
> taken
>> > a
>> > beating over the years with perhaps a too zealous
application
>> of
> mast
>> > shims. Spartite solved this problem and I no longer get
any
> water
>> > coming in the cabin from the mast. Even better, mast
stress on
> the
>> > deck
>> > is evenly distributed which can never happen with shims.
>>
>> I'll second that. We had water on every wet day coming into
>> Jace.
> No
>> delamination or other problems, but the mess on
>> the cushions at the forward port settee on the dinette were
> miserable.
>> Spar-tite fixed it. And our clay dam is still inplace as
well.
> We had
>> it done when the mast was pulled and painted. We replaced
all
>> the
>> standing rigging at that time as well.
>>
>> Someone asked about another location for leaks that caused
drops
> near or
>> at their chain plates. On JACE the windows were leaking, and
the
>> stanchions were leaking. We redid the windows (thank you
>> Catalina
>> Direct) and rebedded the stanchions with all new hardware.
The
> leaks
>> ceased. Last week at the boat we noticed some new drops.
> Checking it
>> looks like either the toe rail (I'll need help with that), or
the
> tracks
>> for the fairleads. That I can do myself, so sometime in the
next
> week
>> or two, I'll take that off and fix it.
>>
>> My current project is to add solar panels. I have two 65
watt
> Kyocera
>> panels which measuer about 30x25. I am rigging a support
across
> the
>> center of the dodger (still cloth) which will hold a 1"
stainless
> rail
>> onto which I will clamp the solar panels. This will add
about
> 25lbs or
>> so to the dodger, but should be well within limits. The wind
> loading
>> would not seem to be too great as a 2" stainless pipe stand
with
> 1"
>> cross bar is one of the options for most solar installations
for
> panels
>> up to 60" x 24", so mine should present less than 1/4 that in
>> wind
>> loading because they will be shielded by the dodger and mast.
> Time will
>> tell.
>>
>> I like Max's rigid vang, and that may be one of our next
> purchases.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Les H
>> JACE
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:15:55 -0400
From: Charles <charles at finn.ws>
Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID: <482494DB.2090904 at finn.ws>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Russ,
Here is one place:
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_wedges.html
Have never done business with them, but these are typical wedges.
Charles Finn
Mighty Quinn #114
Duff, Russ (R.W.) wrote:
> OK, I searched West Marine, Defender, Sailnet, catalinaowners.com,
> sailboatowners.com, and Catalina Direct, and I cannot find mast
wedges.
> Where else could I look?
>
> Sincerely,
> Russ Duff
> Catalina 38, Hull #112
> "AVANTURA"
> Lake Erie
> Grosse Ile, Michigan
> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Les
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:44 AM
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
>
> Long ago, rope gaskets were used to seal everything on a ship, so in
> that sense it is probably OK, but remember that if the rope is not
fully
> impregnated it will eventually rot, unless it is nylon and I am not
sure
> what would happen to nylon long term.
> However, the mast partners help transfer the energy from the
sail to
> the boat hull. On our boats, the original design was to shim the mast
> into the partners with rubber blocks to help absorb shock loads, deal
> with flex (from the loading, and temperature affecting the fiberglass
> and wood), and transfer the constant energy to the boat's deck.
>
> With no shims, the loads are being held only by the mast step
(about
> a
> 1/2" aluminum plate holds the foot of the mast, and locks it to the
mast
> step). I suspect that over time, this would mean some issues to the
> step, but you would have to ask Frank Butler or S&S about that. Also
> shock loads may make the mast flex out of column enough to strike the
> partners, and could cause fiberglass to crack, or the partners to take
> more stress than intended. Again, the designers could say more about
> that.
>
> Russ, I don't think any yard would step the mast without
securing it
> to
> the partners in some fashion, are you sure there are no shims in your
> installation?
>
> Regards,
> Les H
>
> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 08:21 -0600, Max Soto wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My boat came with rope three strand rope between the mast, deck and
>> collar. A sela of silicone is at the top preventing water to come in.
>> I had no leaks, but just in case I added mast collar seal tape.
>> Is it ok to have rope and silicone in here??
>>
>> Max
>>
>>
>> 2008/5/9, Duff, Russ (R.W.) <rduff at visteon.com>:
>> Somehow, I don't see how Spartite can make the mast partner
>> any more waterproof than a good mast boot. Am I missing
>> something? I installed a good rubber mast boot (appropriately
>> sealed) and have had no leaks. I also did not use any shims
>> when the mast was installed. Can this be a problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Russ Duff
>> Catalina 38, Hull #112
>> "AVANTURA"
>> Lake Erie
>> Grosse Ile, Michigan
>> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
>>
>> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>> Smolinske
>> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>> To: hlhowell at pacbell.net; Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've been told by both the yard and the rigger to be careful
>> with spartite both commented to make sure you follow the
>> directions and apply vaseline to the inside of the deck ring.
>> If not they warned that the spartite will adhere to both the
>> mast and the ring making it extremely difficult to remove the
>> mast in the future. We just had a new boot put on when the
>> mast got stepped, if we get water problems in the future I am
>> going to use the spartite. I like the load deflection
>> characteristics along with all the reviews about how well it
>> seals.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: Les
>> Sent: Thu 5/8/2008 10:24 PM
>> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 00:15 -0400, Charles wrote:
>> > By the way, I highly recommend Spartite. My mast and
collar had
>>
> taken
>
>> > a
>> > beating over the years with perhaps a too zealous
application of
>>
> mast
>
>> > shims. Spartite solved this problem and I no longer get
any
>>
> water
>
>> > coming in the cabin from the mast. Even better, mast
stress on
>>
> the
>
>> > deck
>> > is evenly distributed which can never happen with shims.
>>
>> I'll second that. We had water on every wet day coming into
Jace.
>>
> No
>
>> delamination or other problems, but the mess on
>> the cushions at the forward port settee on the dinette were
>>
> miserable.
>
>> Spar-tite fixed it. And our clay dam is still inplace as
well.
>>
> We had
>
>> it done when the mast was pulled and painted. We replaced
all the
>> standing rigging at that time as well.
>>
>> Someone asked about another location for leaks that caused
drops
>>
> near or
>
>> at their chain plates. On JACE the windows were leaking, and
the
>> stanchions were leaking. We redid the windows (thank you
Catalina
>> Direct) and rebedded the stanchions with all new hardware.
The
>>
> leaks
>
>> ceased. Last week at the boat we noticed some new drops.
>>
> Checking it
>
>> looks like either the toe rail (I'll need help with that), or
the
>>
> tracks
>
>> for the fairleads. That I can do myself, so sometime in the
next
>>
> week
>
>> or two, I'll take that off and fix it.
>>
>> My current project is to add solar panels. I have two 65
watt
>>
> Kyocera
>
>> panels which measuer about 30x25. I am rigging a support
across
>>
> the
>
>> center of the dodger (still cloth) which will hold a 1"
stainless
>>
> rail
>
>> onto which I will clamp the solar panels. This will add
about
>>
> 25lbs or
>
>> so to the dodger, but should be well within limits. The wind
>>
> loading
>
>> would not seem to be too great as a 2" stainless pipe stand
with
>>
> 1"
>
>> cross bar is one of the options for most solar installations
for
>>
> panels
>
>> up to 60" x 24", so mine should present less than 1/4 that in
wind
>> loading because they will be shielded by the dodger and mast.
>>
> Time will
>
>> tell.
>>
>> I like Max's rigid vang, and that may be one of our next
>>
> purchases.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Les H
>> JACE
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>>
http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listserve mailing list
>> Listserve at catalina38.org
>> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listserve mailing list
> Listserve at catalina38.org
> http://catalina38.org/mailman/listinfo/listserve_catalina38.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:21:21 -0400
From: "Duff, Russ (R.W.)" <rduff at visteon.com>
Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
To: Catalina 38 Listserve <listserve at catalina38.org>
Message-ID:
<9247DE6E9F2A6E4888AF8253506BF9D512832002 at vistex101.vlgdc.visteon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Rigrite. I forgot about them. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Russ Duff
Catalina 38, Hull #112
"AVANTURA"
Lake Erie
Grosse Ile, Michigan
RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
-----Original Message-----
From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
[mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Charles
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:16 PM
To: Catalina 38 Listserve
Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
Russ,
Here is one place:
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparParts/Mast_wedges.html
Have never done business with them, but these are typical wedges.
Charles Finn
Mighty Quinn #114
Duff, Russ (R.W.) wrote:
> OK, I searched West Marine, Defender, Sailnet, catalinaowners.com,
> sailboatowners.com, and Catalina Direct, and I cannot find mast
wedges.
> Where else could I look?
>
> Sincerely,
> Russ Duff
> Catalina 38, Hull #112
> "AVANTURA"
> Lake Erie
> Grosse Ile, Michigan
> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Les
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:44 AM
> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
> Subject: Re: [C38] Spartite VS Mast boot
>
> Long ago, rope gaskets were used to seal everything on a ship, so in
> that sense it is probably OK, but remember that if the rope is not
fully
> impregnated it will eventually rot, unless it is nylon and I am not
sure
> what would happen to nylon long term.
> However, the mast partners help transfer the energy from the
sail to
> the boat hull. On our boats, the original design was to shim the mast
> into the partners with rubber blocks to help absorb shock loads, deal
> with flex (from the loading, and temperature affecting the fiberglass
> and wood), and transfer the constant energy to the boat's deck.
>
> With no shims, the loads are being held only by the mast step
(about
> a
> 1/2" aluminum plate holds the foot of the mast, and locks it to the
mast
> step). I suspect that over time, this would mean some issues to the
> step, but you would have to ask Frank Butler or S&S about that. Also
> shock loads may make the mast flex out of column enough to strike the
> partners, and could cause fiberglass to crack, or the partners to take
> more stress than intended. Again, the designers could say more about
> that.
>
> Russ, I don't think any yard would step the mast without
securing it
> to
> the partners in some fashion, are you sure there are no shims in your
> installation?
>
> Regards,
> Les H
>
> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 08:21 -0600, Max Soto wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My boat came with rope three strand rope between the mast, deck and
>> collar. A sela of silicone is at the top preventing water to come in.
>> I had no leaks, but just in case I added mast collar seal tape.
>> Is it ok to have rope and silicone in here??
>>
>> Max
>>
>>
>> 2008/5/9, Duff, Russ (R.W.) <rduff at visteon.com>:
>> Somehow, I don't see how Spartite can make the mast partner
>> any more waterproof than a good mast boot. Am I missing
>> something? I installed a good rubber mast boot (appropriately
>> sealed) and have had no leaks. I also did not use any shims
>> when the mast was installed. Can this be a problem?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Russ Duff
>> Catalina 38, Hull #112
>> "AVANTURA"
>> Lake Erie
>> Grosse Ile, Michigan
>> RDUFF AT VISTEON DOT COM
>>
>> AVANTURA AT COMCAST DOT NET
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: listserve-bounces at catalina38.org
>> [mailto:listserve-bounces at catalina38.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>> Smolinske
>> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>> To: hlhowell at pacbell.net; Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I've been told by both the yard and the rigger to be careful
>> with spartite both commented to make sure you follow the
>> directions and apply vaseline to the inside of the deck ring.
>> If not they warned that the spartite will adhere to both the
>> mast and the ring making it extremely difficult to remove the
>> mast in the future. We just had a new boot put on when the
>> mast got stepped, if we get water problems in the future I am
>> going to use the spartite. I like the load deflection
>> characteristics along with all the reviews about how well it
>> seals.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
______________________________________________________________
>> From: Les
>> Sent: Thu 5/8/2008 10:24 PM
>> To: Catalina 38 Listserve
>> Subject: Re: [C38] Bedding Shrouds and leaks
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 00:15 -0400, Charles wrote:
>> > By the way, I highly recommend Spartite. My mast and
collar
had
>>
> taken
>
>> > a
>> > beating over the years with perhaps a too zealous
application
of
>>
> mast
>
>> > shims. Spartite solved this problem and I no longer get
any
>>
> water
>
>> > coming in the cabin from the mast. Even better, mast
stress on
>>
> the
>
>> > deck
>> > is evenly distributed which can never happen with shims.
>>
>> I'll second that. We had water on every wet day coming into
Jace.
>>
> No
>
>> delamination or other problems, but the mess on
>> the cushions at the forward port settee on the dinette were
>>
> miserable.
>
>> Spar-tite fixed it. And our clay dam is still inplace as
well.
>>
> We had
>
>> it done when the mast was pulled and painted. We replaced
all
the
>> standing rigging at that time as well.
>>
>> Someone asked about another location for leaks that caused
drops
>>
> near or
>
>> at their chain plates. On JACE the windows were leaking, and
the
>> stanchions were leaking. We redid the windows (thank you
Catalina
>> Direct) and rebedded the stanchions with all new hardware.
The
>>
> leaks
>
>> ceased. Last week at the boat we noticed some new drops.
>>
> Checking it
>
>> looks like either the toe rail (I'll need help with that), or
the
>>
> tracks
>
>> for the fairleads. That I can do myself, so sometime in the
next
>>
> week
>
>> or two, I'll take that off and fix it.
>>
>> My current project is to add solar panels. I have two 65
watt
>>
> Kyocera
>
>> panels which measuer about 30x25. I am rigging a support
across
>>
> the
>
>> center of the dodger (still cloth) which will hold a 1"
stainless
>>
> rail
>
>> onto which I will clamp the solar panels. This will add
about
>>
> 25lbs or
>
>> so to the dodger, but should be well within limits. The wind
>>
> loading
>
>> would not seem to be too great as a 2" stainless pipe stand
with
>>
> 1"
>
>> cross bar is one of the options for most solar installations
for
>>
> panels
>
>> up to 60" x 24", so mine should present less than 1/4 that in
wind
>> loading because they will be shielded by the dodger and mast.
>>
> Time will
>
>> tell.
>>
>> I like Max's rigid vang, and that may be one of our next
>>
> purchases.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Les H
>> JACE
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Max Soto
>> C38 #198 ESTANCIA
>> Puntarenas, Costa Rica
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Listserve at catalina38.org
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>>
>
>
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